1000

So the media's full of We just crossed the 1000 US dead mark in Afghanistan War.
That number's actually higher because the pentagon only counts those who died "in country". Those who survive long enough to make it to and die in a military hospital at home or in germany are counted differently.

I thought fighting terrorists with a traditional military force was monumentally stupid to begin with and the whole campaign was badly managed from the start. To say nothing of plopping the Iraq war on top of it. It is truly tragic that any of our willing protectors were killed or even wounded for this particular folly.

Now, even some of the right wing is all " 'Obama's War' is unwinable and bankrupting the country", and "the number of us military deaths in afghanistan is shameful". Yet not winning is unthinkable, because we're americans and we don't play by world cup rules.

I was wondering about just how shameful the number really is, so I thought i'd check on a few numbers.

Here's the rounded stats:
WWII: 4 years - 292000 US soldiers killed
Korean Conflict: 2 years - 33000 US soldiers killed
Veit Nam: 20 years - 58000 killed
Afghanistan: 9 1/2 years - 1000 killed
Iraq: 8 years - 4400 Killed


It seems that the military has an excellent track record in Afghanistan in particular, and even combined with Iraq (even accounting for improved medical techniques), compared to all other recent major conflicts other than the Grenada escapade.

What are your thoughts? And any viable suggestions about how to extricate ourselves while simultaneously allowing most Americans to be satisfied with the resolution?
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Re: 1000

I have no thoughts on this other than labeling it "Obama's War," while dickish, is, at this point, 100% accurate. He has had every opportunity to withdraw. Granted, the same people labeling it as "Obama's War" would immediately declare any sort of withdrawal as "Obama hates our country and loves terrorists." So it's a lose-lose from a Political standpoint; but Democrats seem mostly unwilling to fall on their sword when it matters, so no love lost from me...


Just for the record, just because 1/4th less people died in Afghanistan than Iraq, doesn't make the fact that 1000 Americans died is acceptable (or less shameful). I'm really not sure where you're going with that numbers game.
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Re: 1000

Ginjg wrote:

Now, even some of the right wing is all " 'Obama's War' What are your thoughts?

My thoughts are "Uh, WHAT?" when I started to see this "Obama's War" bullshit. WTF? Really? You...fucking morons...actually...what is this, I don't even...

Quote:

And any viable suggestions about how to extricate ourselves while simultaneously allowing most Americans to be satisfied with the resolution?

Viable? The Soviets gave up, the Brits gave it up. I don't give a fuck about Afghanistanians. The world's largest military force has not managed to track down a 6'4" tall goat fucker in the mountains of the Hindukush. He's probably running a gas station in New Jersey now. Whatever the current office holder does, the democrats will cheer for it and find a way to rationalize it, and the republicans will vilify it as the most ant-American, jesus-hating move by any president ever.
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More people in this country are more interested in the Mel Gibson tapes than they are in how this Country is run, the mindset is that they elect the people who have their best interests at heart.....

btw I listened to a satellite radio show this week that had uncensored Mel tapes....

that Nucker is Futs
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I don't give a shit if most americans are satisfied with a resolution.....

all I can say is get the hell out........

I watched Rachel Maddow's reports from Afghanistan for the last couple of weeks, and while she's pleasantly liberal, she seemed very earnest in asking the soldiers, top rank soldiers, and diplomats, and administrators, what they/we are doing there.

The conclusion she, and in a way her sources, seemed to have reached, was, "Yes, we have a very clearly defined mission in Afghanistan: prop up a government and infrastructure, including military and police, until that government can maintain order in the country so terrorists can't use it as a safe haven. AND, that mission is totally impossible to achieve." (For one thing, the GNP of Afghanistan is 14 Billion dollars. The military and police infrastructure required to keep the country Taliban free, or at least Taliban light, is 10 Billion dollars. Hmmm.

As you guys point out, for Obama, it's lose-lose. For us, it's lose-lose. For the Afghanis, it's lose-lose. My guess, given how these things tend to go, is that Obama would have to wait until a second term to "declare victory and get the hell out" or, he could do that now and not get reelected. Not saying that it's a given he will get reelected, but the only president who was ever successful in exiting a war -- oh wait, there hasn't been one. If Nixon hadn't been taken down by Watergate we'd probably still be in Viet Nam.

We're Americans. We like to fuck shit up. It's our God-given right. Anything but total destruction is not politically acceptable. We want an extra-Jesusy Thunderdome or nothing. The only way for us to get out of Afghanistan is for Barack to fall on his political sword, and I don't see that happening. We should just cap Karzai, annex Afghanistan as the 51st state and be done with it. Like Alabama and Mississippi, it will just be another fiscally negative state where ignorance is the main export. But there will be awesome deals on Oriental rugs and lapis lazuli for a while.

Woo hoo! USA! USA! USA!

chris wrote:

Not saying that it's a given he will get reelected, but the only president who was ever successful in exiting a war -- oh wait, there hasn't been one.

Bill Clinton
Harry S. Truman
F D Roosevelt
Woodrow Wilson
Theodore Roosevelt
McKinley
Polk
Madison
Washington
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It finally happened. My conscience stopped working. I've never felt so free.

And let's not forget the Civil War: Approx 625,000 killed in action or who died as a result of...

The government here is facing the same decision, although there aren't too many people who would think of David Cameron as unpatriotic if he pulls the British troops out. As you can imagine, however, they do not want to be seen as an ally who does not support their friends. They have (sort of) announced a deadline for pulling the combat troops out, but the lack of money to finance their part of the war effort, along with increasing numbers of Brits telling them to bring the troops home may well move the deadline forward a bit. They plan to leave people there for training purposes as long as they are needed, however.

Just thought I would mention that despite the lack of money to fund the war for much longer, they are sticking to their plans to update Trident (nuclear weapons) to the tune of 100 billion pounds.

Kar, FDR exited the war by dying, so that doesn't count.

I think Bush really did a great number on the country. His actions and decisions were so bad that they will be fucking this country for decades to come. I agree that Obama will pull out of Afghanistan in a second term. The bad thing is that Afghanistan was a totally workable concept, as long as we didn't do something stupid... you know, like invade Iraq. It required our complete attention and focus, but Afghanistan could have been made into the example of Middle Eastern democracy that Bush wanted. We just have to forget about their democracy being like ours. They don't want that over there.

All the potential for good coming from 9/11 was squandered by GWB. A smart President could have used that event to improve the world.
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Watching The Wheels wrote:

Just for the record, just because 1/4th less people died in Afghanistan than Iraq, doesn't make the fact that 1000 Americans died is acceptable (or less shameful). I'm really not sure where you're going with that numbers game.

Did you miss this important paragraph in my original post?

Quote:

I thought fighting terrorists with a traditional military force was monumentally stupid to begin with and the whole campaign was badly managed from the start. To say nothing of plopping the Iraq war on top of it. It is truly tragic that any of our willing protectors were killed or even wounded for this particular folly.

But given that the war is being pursued, it seems that it's being done with a relatively minimal loss of soldiers lives in comparison. That's all the numbers were meant to convey.

Boota wrote:

All the potential for good coming from 9/11 was squandered by GWB. A smart President could have used that event to improve the world.

Quoted for Truth
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To Know is to Love
To Love is our aim

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Why should we bother with immortality when we are eternal?

Kar98 wrote:

chris wrote: Not saying that it's a given he will get reelected, but the only president who was ever successful in exiting a war -- oh wait, there hasn't been one. Bill Clinton Harry S. Truman F D Roosevelt Woodrow Wilson Theodore Roosevelt McKinley Polk Madison Washington

I'm talking politically successful:
Washington wasn't president until AFTER the war.
F.D. Rooseveldt died during the war.
Truman was wildly unpopular after the war. (Was barely elected to his term.)
There was no war during Clinton's term. (Bosnia was not a war. Sure, to the Bosnians, but not to us.)
Theodore Roosevelt became president AFTER the
Spanish American war.
And we lost the Mexican American War (Polk) because
we got Texas out of that one.

And I won't dignify Madison, McKinley,
and Wilson by looking them up:)

Berbery one and two, Philippines, and... yeah, too much effort. Let's go drinking.
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It finally happened. My conscience stopped working. I've never felt so free.

There is only ONE way to wage WAR.
You slaughter every living thing in front of you, and salt the earth behind you.
Plain and simple.
Screw diplomacy, screw winning them over, screw mercy (it's french for "thank you" anyways...)
There is not now; nor ever was, a civil way of killing another human being.
Shit gets messy, that's the way of the world.
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We all enter this world in the same way: naked; screaming; soaked in blood.
But if you live your life right, that kind of thing doesn't have to stop there." Dana Gould

chris wrote:

We should just cap Karzai, annex Afghanistan as the 51st state and be done with it. Like Alabama and Mississippi, it will just be another fiscally negative state where ignorance is the main export. But there will be awesome deals on Oriental rugs and lapis lazuli for a while. Woo hoo! USA! USA! USA!

52nd state.
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lisa wrote:

chris wrote: We should just cap Karzai, annex Afghanistan as the 51st state and be done with it. Like Alabama and Mississippi, it will just be another fiscally negative state where ignorance is the main export. But there will be awesome deals on Oriental rugs and lapis lazuli for a while. Woo hoo! USA! USA! USA! 52nd state.

as 51 are you counting
American Samoa
Guam
Mariana Islands
Marshall Islands
Micronesia
Palau
Puerto Rico
U.S. Virgin Islands

or are you considering Mexico or Iraq?
_________________
To Learn is to Know
To Know is to Love
To Love is our aim

~~~~~~~

Why should we bother with immortality when we are eternal?