Yeah, but where was her delight??

deb wrote:

"12:20 ...and drank more wine than he had drunk at any time in one day since he was born."

Though that time he got tanked at his 4th birthday party comes pretty damn close.

JustAGirl wrote:

Yeah, but where was her delight??

I think her delight was taking the canopy from his bed.
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"Fantasy is an exercise bicycle for the mind; it doesn't take you anywhere, but it tones up muscles that might." Pratchett

deb wrote:

"12:20 And Holofernes took great delight in her, and drank more wine than he had drunk at any time in one day since he was born." It is understood that the phrase "took great delight in her" had nothing to do with her witty repartee, and everything to do with him having sex with her. It doesn't make suggestion at all as to whether it was willing or no. Equal phrasing (depends on the translation) would be "lay with her" "rape" etc etc. But technically, you're right; it does not say rape.

Well, possibly, but two verses before the ones I cited, Judith prays before she leaves for Holfernes' camp, and she's not mincing words about "delight":

2 O Lord God of my father Simeon, to whom thou gavest a sword to take vengeance of the strangers, who loosened the girdle of a maid to defile her, and discovered the thigh to her shame, and polluted her virginity to her reproach; for thou saidst, It shall not be so; and yet they did so:
3 Wherefore thou gavest their rulers to be slain, so that they dyed their bed in blood, being deceived, and smotest the servants with their lords, and the lords upon their thrones;

So, why so coy, and have him "delight in her" if they meant "defile" or "ravage", words used in previous verses I'd interpret it that she seduced him, especially considering that she's obviously playing him to get him alone in his tent with his soldiers elsewhere.

chris wrote:

deb wrote: "12:20 And Holofernes took great delight in her, and drank more wine than he had drunk at any time in one day since he was born." It is understood that the phrase "took great delight in her" had nothing to do with her witty repartee, and everything to do with him having sex with her. It doesn't make suggestion at all as to whether it was willing or no. Equal phrasing (depends on the translation) would be "lay with her" "rape" etc etc. But technically, you're right; it does not say rape. Well, possibly, but two verses before the ones I cited, Judith prays before she leaves for Holfernes' camp, and she's not mincing words about "delight": 2 O Lord God of my father Simeon, to whom thou gavest a sword to take vengeance of the strangers, who loosened the girdle of a maid to defile her, and discovered the thigh to her shame, and polluted her virginity to her reproach; for thou saidst, It shall not be so; and yet they did so: 3 Wherefore thou gavest their rulers to be slain, so that they dyed their bed in blood, being deceived, and smotest the servants with their lords, and the lords upon their thrones; So, why so coy, and have him "delight in her" if they meant "defile" or "ravage", words used in previous verses I'd interpret it that she seduced him, especially considering that she's obviously playing him to get him alone in his tent with his soldiers elsewhere.

again i say...."had sex with her." there's no interpretation placed on whether it was seduction, rape, consensual or what. Just that Holofernes had a great time. But the passages you quoted here directly discusses rape. Doesn't say Judith was raped, though.
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"Fantasy is an exercise bicycle for the mind; it doesn't take you anywhere, but it tones up muscles that might." Pratchett

You know, the other benefit of Catholics not reading their Bibles is we don't use the KJV anymore, so ours is kinda like Bible Cliff Notes... not every verb ends in -est (e.g. smitest) and the thous have all been replaced by Ebonics I think... it's been ahwile since I opened mine
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- "Bones"

leprrkan wrote:

You know, the other benefit of Catholics not reading their Bibles is we don't use the KJV anymore, so ours is kinda like Bible Cliff Notes... not every verb ends in -est (e.g. smitest) and the thous have all been replaced by Ebonics I think... it's been ahwile since I opened mine

The KJV has become nearly archaic and not used by many people at all. I have 8 bibles, and I really only ever refer to the NRSV. I just like it a lot better than any of the others. (no, i am not a thumper.)
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"Fantasy is an exercise bicycle for the mind; it doesn't take you anywhere, but it tones up muscles that might." Pratchett

leprrkan wrote:

You know, the other benefit of Catholics not reading their Bibles is we don't use the KJV anymore, so ours is kinda like Bible Cliff Notes... not every verb ends in -est (e.g. smitest) and the thous have all been replaced by Ebonics I think... it's been ahwile since I opened mine

Wouldn't that have been the Douay-Rheims bible (1582), rather than the KJV? It was made for Roman Catholics, and contains the 16th-century English grammar (e.g., Exodus 20:3 Thou shalt not have strange gods before me.) Online version.
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mllefifi wrote:

leprrkan wrote: You know, the other benefit of Catholics not reading their Bibles is we don't use the KJV anymore, so ours is kinda like Bible Cliff Notes... not every verb ends in -est (e.g. smitest) and the thous have all been replaced by Ebonics I think... it's been ahwile since I opened mine Wouldn't that have been the Douay-Rheims bible (1582), rather than the KJV? It was made for Roman Catholics, and contains the 16th-century English grammar (e.g., Exodus 20:3 Thou shalt not have strange gods before me.) Online version.

Dork

We have a couple different editions. The one I have is the St Joseph Edition, which is basically a Bible for students. I got it as a gift from my Grandmother when I started college.
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"Jesus... is NOT a zombie... I shouldn't have to tell you that."

- "Bones"

deb wrote:

chris wrote: deb wrote: "12:20 And Holofernes took great delight in her, and drank more wine than he had drunk at any time in one day since he was born." It is understood that the phrase "took great delight in her" had nothing to do with her witty repartee, and everything to do with him having sex with her. It doesn't make suggestion at all as to whether it was willing or no. Equal phrasing (depends on the translation) would be "lay with her" "rape" etc etc. But technically, you're right; it does not say rape. Well, possibly, but two verses before the ones I cited, Judith prays before she leaves for Holfernes' camp, and she's not mincing words about "delight": 2 O Lord God of my father Simeon, to whom thou gavest a sword to take vengeance of the strangers, who loosened the girdle of a maid to defile her, and discovered the thigh to her shame, and polluted her virginity to her reproach; for thou saidst, It shall not be so; and yet they did so: 3 Wherefore thou gavest their rulers to be slain, so that they dyed their bed in blood, being deceived, and smotest the servants with their lords, and the lords upon their thrones; So, why so coy, and have him "delight in her" if they meant "defile" or "ravage", words used in previous verses I'd interpret it that she seduced him, especially considering that she's obviously playing him to get him alone in his tent with his soldiers elsewhere. again i say...."had sex with her." there's no interpretation placed on whether it was seduction, rape, consensual or what. Just that Holofernes had a great time. But the passages you quoted here directly discusses rape. Doesn't say Judith was raped, though.

"Then said Judith unto him, Who am I now, that I should gainsay my lord? surely whatsoever pleaseth him I will do speedily, and it shall be my joy unto the day of my death. "

I think that could qualify as consent, if not outright willingness...
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Meh... she was fakin' it.
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deb wrote:

again i say...."had sex with her." there's no interpretation placed on whether it was seduction, rape, consensual or what. Just that Holofernes had a great time. But the passages you quoted here directly discusses rape. Doesn't say Judith was raped, though.

The New American Bible (online) quotes 12:20 as "Holofernes, charmed by her, drank a great quantity of wine, more than he had ever drunk on one single day in his life." The next bit is about how it got late, the servants left Holofernes and Judith alone in the tent, and the guy's drunk off his ass, lying in bed. And then she slays him, so I'm not clear from either this bit or the bit the Author Guy quoted earlier that there was any nookie between them, whether consensual or nay. Besides which, at line 12:20 there would've been loads of servants present in the tent. Even if Holofernes didn't mind an audience, he probably knew Judith's religious beliefs would make her balk at a semi-public freak-fest.
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~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
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^^^ Plus, when Judith and her maid get back home to show all the peeps the head of the slain Holofernes, she tells them, "As the Lord lives, who has protected me in the path I have followed, I swear that it was my face that seduced Holofernes to his ruin, and that he did not sin with me to my defilement or disgrace." (13:16, NAB, online).
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<=== Dressing in dismal chic and maintaining her detached aura of aristocratic chill since 1985.
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
"You can't wipe your ass with empty promises." - thread title, by walk

Sephonae wrote:

^^^ Plus, when Judith and her maid get back home to show all the peeps the head of the slain Holofernes, she tells them, "As the Lord lives, who has protected me in the path I have followed, I swear that it was my face that seduced Holofernes to his ruin, and that he did not sin with me to my defilement or disgrace." (13:16, NAB, online).

So, esentially, a bad ending to a good booty call.
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I think we're all missing the most important point...

























































decapitation can be really cool if painted right
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"Jesus... is NOT a zombie... I shouldn't have to tell you that."

- "Bones"

Sephonae wrote:

^^^ Plus, when Judith and her maid get back home to show all the peeps the head of the slain Holofernes, she tells them, "As the Lord lives, who has protected me in the path I have followed, I swear that it was my face that seduced Holofernes to his ruin, and that he did not sin with me to my defilement or disgrace." (13:16, NAB, online).

Does that mean she gave him head and then got his to go?
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We all enter this world in the same way: naked; screaming; soaked in blood.
But if you live your life right, that kind of thing doesn't have to stop there." Dana Gould