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When is enough, enough?
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Notdeadyet



Joined: 23 Nov 2006
Posts: 4056
Location: Midwest
When is enough, enough?  Reply with quote  

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/6671067.stm

http://www.thislife.org/Radio_Episode.aspx?episode=331

http://www.pbs.org/independentlens/catsofmirikitani/mirikitani.html

So the first link is about one Gitmo detainee, the second is a free podcast link to this American life and their episode about the detainees, and the third episode is the story of what happened to another detainee from long ago.......
Since one of my kids was born sep 19 2001, I am very well aware of how long the detainees have been detained... going on six years, some of them were teenagers when they went to camp x ray....what the hell are they going to learn about these people that they haven't figured out already, how on earth are they going to release these what by now must be severely psychologically damaged individuals without criticism, and WHERE are they going to go? Maybe, the first link holds a clue, huh.... Shocked
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Post Sat May 19, 2007 7:43 pm   View user's profile Send private message
Ferrit Leggings



Joined: 29 Mar 2004
Posts: 2658
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Don't you know that when we make it a law and rewrite the Geneva Convention that means we can torture all we want because it is legal? It is the cruel to be kind theory of the Bush administration. Torture and kill so that they will like us and not want to torture and kill us.

BTW: Didn't we kill Saddam for crimes against humanity? Yet we are doing the same thing under the guise of democracy, freedom. and good old fashioned patriotism. The American Way, either you are with us or you are against us and if you are against us then expect legalized torture and imprisonment while the courts sit on their asses and wait.

Now lets all have some apple pie!
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Post Sat May 19, 2007 8:33 pm   View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Notdeadyet



Joined: 23 Nov 2006
Posts: 4056
Location: Midwest
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Oh, believe me, I know a LOT more than you would think about how our government and especially our military works...... Evil or Very Mad

Well, here's another one out...
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/6673557.stm

Australia's one to talk of fair play....
anybody ever heard of a little Pacific rim island called Nauru

http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/WO0505/S00097.htm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/4578009.stm
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Post Sat May 19, 2007 9:54 pm   View user's profile Send private message
juissez



Joined: 08 Mar 2007
Posts: 145
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The Geneva Convention is a treaty. It only applies when all sides agree to it. Since the other side happily chops off the heads of its detainees, that means we are not held by the bounds of the Convention. That and the fact that they are not uniformed soldiers, which is another requirement of the Convention. Hell, we don't even chop off fingers, let alone heads.

As to the people of Gitmo, they are not just held because of any knowledge they may still have, but because they are considered clear and present dangers to the USA. You are going to have to accept the fact that we may hold many of them for the rest of their lives.

Saddam gassed a half a million Kurds or more. Women, children, the elderly...all murdered because their ethnicity did not please Saddam. None of the indiscretions of the US, real or imagined, come close to that.

And finally, I always wonder why people are so concerned by what message we are sending to the terrorists. There is no action that we can take to get the terrorists to like us. There is only one message we should be trying to send to them:

Treat America well and we will always be their for you, treat us poorly and you will find a wrath more terrifying than your worst nightmare

Post Sat May 19, 2007 11:14 pm   View user's profile Send private message
fortune cookie



Joined: 18 Mar 2006
Posts: 10534
Location: Easy street
 Reply with quote  

Yeah! Razz Laughing
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Post Sat May 19, 2007 11:29 pm   View user's profile Send private message
Notdeadyet



Joined: 23 Nov 2006
Posts: 4056
Location: Midwest
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Yeah, I KNOW but what about the people that's crabby neighbors turned them in because they wanted to herd goats on their land and collect the bounty the U.S. offered......
I don't care about any message sent to the terrorists, they aren't going to get any message, they don't care....
I am concerned about people who were in the wrong place at the wrong time or are mistaken for someone else, that's crap....
I know they just moved the twelve high level ones into there, whatever... what about the rest of them, did you even LISTEN to the podcast?
I notice the American kid who's Dad was a judge or whatever got a trial in the u.s., why is he treated differently?
the Narcos don't abide by the geneva convention, and yet Manuel Noriega gets an American prison cell and his daughter and granddaughters get to visit him, what the crap...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manuel_Noriega
In case you are not old enough pay attention to the ruler of Panama and the rabid dog conversation......
Americans had better pay attention, because the rules are changing fast....

I repeat, WHAT are they going to find out that's useful from these people that they haven't found out in five years...
The Australian guy gets to serve out the rest of his sentence in an Australian prison I see.....
All that's going to happen is they are making martyr's of these guys, whether they did anything or not, the 44 pound guy in the first article will be proof of our insanity........

What are they going to do with the rest of them. Make them the "Disappeared"?
As for the American kid and the Australian guy, as they used to say in the old Soviet Union, some people are more "equal" than others right? Why should we care about any of these people, they aren't from here anyway...

"all murdered because their ethnicity did not please Saddam. None of the indiscretions of the US, real or imagined, come close to that."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/6671067.stm


BTW, I love the newspeak word "detainee", we can't call them prisoners of war, because they have rights, and yet we call it a war on terrorism... allowing us to do things we couldn't if it were not a war... a NEW kind of war...
I wonder who thought of this word for them...
"I'm sorry I was detained from the meeting Victoria."
"Why that's alright, Arthur, your delay was understandable. After all, we are fighting a war."
"What shall we call these insurgents we need to torture?"
"Why, detainees of course, we can't keep them in America, they must be sent back where they came from...."
"Oh, excellent Arthur!"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_orwell
I agree to disagree but you could at least THINK about it....

I'll go away now..... Evil or Very Mad
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Post Sun May 20, 2007 6:26 am   View user's profile Send private message
lisa



Joined: 10 Apr 2004
Posts: 6789
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juissez wrote:


Saddam gassed a half a million Kurds or more. Women, children, the elderly...all murdered because their ethnicity did not please Saddam. None of the indiscretions of the US, real or imagined, come close to that.................



Treat America well and we will always be their for you, treat us poorly and you will find a wrath more terrifying than your worst nightmare


The indiscretions of the United States...cannot come close to that? Juissez...Which world are you from?

Honey pumpkin....male or female, whatever you are....The United States IS the terrorist country. Wake up a little you know.
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Post Sun May 20, 2007 9:19 am   View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Ferrit Leggings



Joined: 29 Mar 2004
Posts: 2658
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juissez wrote:
The Geneva Convention is a treaty. It only applies when all sides agree to it. Since the other side happily chops off the heads of its detainees, that means we are not held by the bounds of the Convention. That and the fact that they are not uniformed soldiers, which is another requirement of the Convention. Hell, we don't even chop off fingers, let alone heads.

As to the people of Gitmo, they are not just held because of any knowledge they may still have, but because they are considered clear and present dangers to the USA. You are going to have to accept the fact that we may hold many of them for the rest of their lives.

Saddam gassed a half a million Kurds or more. Women, children, the elderly...all murdered because their ethnicity did not please Saddam. None of the indiscretions of the US, real or imagined, come close to that.

And finally, I always wonder why people are so concerned by what message we are sending to the terrorists. There is no action that we can take to get the terrorists to like us. There is only one message we should be trying to send to them:

Treat America well and we will always be their for you, treat us poorly and you will find a wrath more terrifying than your worst nightmare



The Geneva Convention holds the nations that agree to it by a standard above those countries that do not agree to it. That means that when the United States alters the standards and lowers itself to the standards of the terrorists, or freedom fighters (depending on which side you are on), the United States is no better than those of whom they are fighting against. It does not matter if it is even one instance compared to the many of the likes of Saddam.

If we are looking at things from a historical perspective and the way Saddam gassed Kurds and ethnicities then I would say that is not much different than giving plague infested blankets and other provisions to Native Americans during the infancy of our country. More recent would be under the Reagan administration when a majority of the things Saddam did against Iran and ethnicities not of his liking. He sat back and did nothing. Apparently it was ok as long as we had the best oil deal. Let me change that because he did not sit back and do nothing because we provided Saddam with the technology and intelligence to do many of the things that he did against Iranians and the people of his own country.

The statue of liberty says, “Bring us your tired, poor,” and so on it does not say, “Bring us your tired, your poor and we will piss on them then put them in jail without due process.” What Bush did was piss on the constitution and the rights of all Americans while pretending to hold our freedoms and rights sacred. Laws like the Patriot Act and rewriting what torture is does not insure a healthy and prosperous America, it insures an America that no one is proud of, except those people who are willing to turn a blind eye to justice and peace. It also insures that many more Muslims will be willing to take up arms against us in a never ending battle of two wrongs.
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Post Sun May 20, 2007 9:39 am   View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Notdeadyet



Joined: 23 Nov 2006
Posts: 4056
Location: Midwest
 Reply with quote  

anybody here ever talked to someone working at Camp X - ray??? Other than me?????????
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Post Sun May 20, 2007 9:48 am   View user's profile Send private message
juissez



Joined: 08 Mar 2007
Posts: 145
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NDY,

I couldn't help but notice that in the article about the 44 lb. man you keep referring to there is not a single bit of evidence that this man was actually at Gitmo. Just the suspicions of the family. Plus he was found in the custody of Pakistan.

As to Noriega, he was "convicted under federal charges of cocaine trafficking, racketeering, and money laundering", not war crimes. (Quote taken from the Wikipedia article that you mentioned). As such he is in a normal federal prison and currently has the ability to receive visits from his family.

As for the Australian citizen you speak of. Australia is a great ally of the USA and it is an understandable and acceptable that they ask to take care of one of their own.

Finally, as to the newspeak word "detainee" please note that you used the word four times in your original post. Are you suggesting that you can use the word and I cannot? Call these people in question whatever you wish, it doesn't change the fact that they are NOT covered under the Geneva Convention

Post Sun May 20, 2007 10:25 am   View user's profile Send private message
Notdeadyet



Joined: 23 Nov 2006
Posts: 4056
Location: Midwest
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Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. Show me any evidence he wasn't at the camp. Hmmm, maybe his family spoke to him... maybe not. Paragraph 2, it doesn't say his family thinks he was held there, it says he was held there. I wonder why they think he was there, don't you .... wonder I mean? Why don't we know who is in that camp? Why is an attorney who dared to release the names of some individuals now going to jail?

We did invade and capture Noriega during a war, and he did torture and behead people, up until then we knew some stuff he was doing and let it slide... hmmmm.

England is our great Ally also, they want us to close the camp.

You can call them whatever you want. It's America. You are right they are not covered by the Geneva convention. That was kind of the point....

I wonder what it means for a country to agree to the Geneva convention...

I wonder what it means to other countries when you agree and then invent a special place where you don't have to abide by it....
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Post Sun May 20, 2007 10:35 am   View user's profile Send private message
juissez



Joined: 08 Mar 2007
Posts: 145
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Paragraph 2 : "Mr Memon's family say he disappeared in 2003 and was held in Guantanamo Bay before being dumped by unidentified men outside his Karachi home last month."

In other words that family "thinks" he was there.

Post Sun May 20, 2007 10:42 am   View user's profile Send private message
fortune cookie



Joined: 18 Mar 2006
Posts: 10534
Location: Easy street
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You guys are right, from now on our nation should act in this manner.
Oh no, excuse ME, Mr. Terrorist.
My bad.
My nationality and religion are an affront to you.
I should have known better.
I caught you, now I'll send you home with a severe repromand.
So you can come back and do it again, remember to tell your friends.
By the way, I won't hold it against you if you behead a few of my
countrymen on your national broadcasts.
I'll follow the rules of civility, you do whatever you feel is right for you.
Send women and children with explosives strapped to their bodies to
do your fighting.
I won't raise arms against them, or search them.
You know what?
I feel so bad about being here a thorn in your side.
I'll just slit my own throat for you, and save you the effort.
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Post Sun May 20, 2007 10:45 am   View user's profile Send private message
Ginjg



Joined: 04 Sep 2004
Posts: 6617
Location: Los Angeles
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While the imprisoned at X-ray and other "facilities" world wide are not technically members of an opposing nation's miltary, and therefore not covered under the geneva conventions, they are in the custody of the United States and are therefore supposed to be treated in pretty rigorously defined manner.

It should make no difference which arm of the US they are held by. Otherwise, a case could be made that any non-citizen was not entitled to the same protections as a citizen. From there the slope will get steep and very slippery - first naturalized citizens will get fewer rights than native born, not long after that, first gen less than established clans, etc.
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Post Sun May 20, 2007 10:57 am   View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website AIM Address
Goudron



Joined: 03 Aug 2004
Posts: 2570
Location: near Cleveland OH
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Ferrit Leggings wrote:

The Geneva [...deleted for space...] of two wrongs.


Nicely said.
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Post Sun May 20, 2007 11:16 am   View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
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