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When is enough, enough?
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dougp



Joined: 25 Feb 2006
Posts: 2038
Location: right behind you
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juissez wrote:
And where is this oil that we supposed stole? Is it at some secret refinery that the American people don't know about it? What is the name of any ship that has been discovered transporting stolen oil from Iraq? And finally, please explain to me how us stealing oil makes the price at the gas pump go up



I re-read my post. In doing so I could find no mention by me of oil being stolen. Would you argue that the U.S. government is not in CONTROL of Iraq's oil? Don't try and flame me, you're way out of your league.
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Post Sun May 20, 2007 3:06 pm   View user's profile Send private message
Notdeadyet



Joined: 23 Nov 2006
Posts: 4056
Location: Midwest
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OH come on....
FC!! You've read enough on here to know that
somebody has REALLY hurt my kids and lost their parenting rights because of it.... yes I wish I could yank his testicles out through his throat, but instead I got to spend thousands in legal fees doing it the American way with a judge and the whole deal....
and that no I don't think we should roll over...
When I started this post I thought it was pretty clear that this is about FIVE YEARS!!!! FIVE YEARS...... long enough to figure out what the hell's going on... if they want to lock them up and throw away the key, they should have enough confessions and info from them by now to have a real trial and let justice take it's course.....if they don't then they probably never will, so what are they going to do now????
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Post Sun May 20, 2007 3:32 pm   View user's profile Send private message
Goudron



Joined: 03 Aug 2004
Posts: 2570
Location: near Cleveland OH
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Where in the Geneva convention does it say anything about limiting punishment of terrorists to 8 hours of anger management? Charge them with a crime, try them for it, follow through with punishment. Maybe it's the death penalty. Maybe life in prison, maybe something less. Maybe *gasp* they're found innocent. Does the punishment need to include disembowelment to not be considered "rolling over"? I don't see any reason to hold people indefinitely because somebody thinks they might be dangerous.

PS: keeping to the moral high ground is not done just for the sake of itself. You do it so you can live with yourself when all is said and done. If you can live with being a barbarian, then elect more moronic barbarians like Bush. Elect intelligent barbarians like... ? Do continure to elect barbarians though. Otherwise, elect someone slightly more civilized who doesn't enjoy shitting down the throat of Lady Liberty quite as much.

I can just see GW climbing to the top in there and seeing if he could drop a dookie all the way down. He'd get a kick out of that. Ok, who wouldn't, but it's the symbolism that matters Smile
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Post Sun May 20, 2007 3:45 pm   View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
juissez



Joined: 08 Mar 2007
Posts: 145
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dougp wrote:


...We did not go there to liberate the people from some meglomaniac despot. We went there, and intend to stay there for oil...


Please explain to me what this means if it is not an accusation of theft. Are you only suggesting our soldiers and the administration just get a warm and fuzzy feeling being in close proximity to the oil wells?

Post Sun May 20, 2007 4:18 pm   View user's profile Send private message
juissez



Joined: 08 Mar 2007
Posts: 145
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And where in the Geneva Convention does it mention terrorists at all?

Post Sun May 20, 2007 4:19 pm   View user's profile Send private message
Notdeadyet



Joined: 23 Nov 2006
Posts: 4056
Location: Midwest
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http://law.shu.edu/news/final_no_hearing_hearings_report.pdf

FIVE YEARS......
Really, you guys, please at least listen to the podcast... hear the jag guys talk....
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Post Sun May 20, 2007 5:05 pm   View user's profile Send private message
Notdeadyet



Joined: 23 Nov 2006
Posts: 4056
Location: Midwest
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At least let it load and fast forward to minute 46 and listen to it from there....
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Post Sun May 20, 2007 5:38 pm   View user's profile Send private message
fortune cookie



Joined: 18 Mar 2006
Posts: 10534
Location: Easy street
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FFPF, said,

You can bury your head in the sand and try to defend these decisions in the name of freedom and the war on terror but there has to be a point where you say stop. I heard a senator the other week saying that it was ok to torture innocent people if it saved 100 others. Well, I'm sorry, but that's just horrifying. Would he still think it was ok if that innocent person was him...or his kid...or his wife? I think not.

It's easy to accept these things when they don't affect you, but I'm damn sure you'd change your tune if they did.

I understand that this is a new kind of enemy we're facing, but to lose all sense of justice, morality, and compassion in the face of such an enemy is sad and a slippery slope to damnation. I would not be surprised if the US and it's allies were remembered with dark words when history recounts tales of this war on terror.
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Again I go to, what are some of your solutions?
I am not asking so I can shoot them down.
I ask so that a common consensus can be reached.
Everyone seems more than willing to point and say bad, bad.
I have as yet to hear a suggestion on how to fix the broken.
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Post Sun May 20, 2007 5:38 pm   View user's profile Send private message
Notdeadyet



Joined: 23 Nov 2006
Posts: 4056
Location: Midwest
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O.K., the NLEC's (the NWEC) get to go home or get assimilated here...
The rest of the enemy combatants get an actual honest to god habeas corpus hearing and either get imprisoned here in the u.s. or they get deported.... how's that for starters...
If the NLEC's are in such bad physical and psychological shape that they can't return to their society we had better rehabilitate them somehow....
That seems pretty clear....
Here's some more info....interesting what this navy officer has to say about the constitution?
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18747042/
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Post Sun May 20, 2007 5:44 pm   View user's profile Send private message
FattyFattyPorkFace



Joined: 10 Aug 2004
Posts: 6381
Location: Michigan
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fortune cookie wrote:
FFPF, said,

You can bury your head in the sand and try to defend these decisions in the name of freedom and the war on terror but there has to be a point where you say stop. I heard a senator the other week saying that it was ok to torture innocent people if it saved 100 others. Well, I'm sorry, but that's just horrifying. Would he still think it was ok if that innocent person was him...or his kid...or his wife? I think not.

It's easy to accept these things when they don't affect you, but I'm damn sure you'd change your tune if they did.

I understand that this is a new kind of enemy we're facing, but to lose all sense of justice, morality, and compassion in the face of such an enemy is sad and a slippery slope to damnation. I would not be surprised if the US and it's allies were remembered with dark words when history recounts tales of this war on terror.
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Again I go to, what are some of your solutions?
I am not asking so I can shoot them down.
I ask so that a common consensus can be reached.
Everyone seems more than willing to point and say bad, bad.
I have as yet to hear a suggestion on how to fix the broken.


Not knowing how to resolve a problem is not a reason to ignore that the chosen solution is flawed.
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Post Sun May 20, 2007 6:33 pm   View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
fortune cookie



Joined: 18 Mar 2006
Posts: 10534
Location: Easy street
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FattyFattyPorkFace wrote:


Not knowing how to resolve a problem is not a reason to ignore that the chosen solution is flawed.


I do not argue that the present solution is the wrong soultion.
I ask that you, present your idea on how, you, would fix it.
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But if you live your life right, that kind of thing doesn't have to stop there." Dana Gould

Post Sun May 20, 2007 6:45 pm   View user's profile Send private message
FattyFattyPorkFace



Joined: 10 Aug 2004
Posts: 6381
Location: Michigan
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And I just said, not knowing...

Look, I don't know. I don't know what the solution is, but that doesn't invalidate my points on the current situation. The world would be a weird place if you couldn't point out problems without having a fresh set of solutions.
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Post Sun May 20, 2007 7:07 pm   View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
fortune cookie



Joined: 18 Mar 2006
Posts: 10534
Location: Easy street
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I see at minimum, three scenarios.

1) Pull out, leave a total reeking mess. Return the prisoners home.
Apologies and reparations all around.

a) Who gonna pay for that?
b) What do we do when, not if, retaliations occur?
c) What does this say to others that would grind an axe with us?

2) Actually do what, our "objectives" were to begin this whole mess.
One of which, was to:
HELP, these people to establish a government, where all of the peoples
inhabiting the land, can receive equal treatment.

a) Do they even want such a thing?
b) Are they ready to attempt such a feat?
c) Do WE even know how to go about setting up such a government?

3) Prove the America bashers right.
Finish with predjudice, what began so many years ago.
Loose the dogs, kill everything holding a weapon.
Completely subjugate the country and it's populace.
Enforce the age old "Love me or Die" policy.

a) Do we, as a country, possess the necessary will to do so?
b) When done, do we stop there?
c) What will our Allies have to say?

I'm not saying these are the solution.
I am presenting possibilities.
As well as a modicum of the problems that would result from those actions.
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We all enter this world in the same way: naked; screaming; soaked in blood.
But if you live your life right, that kind of thing doesn't have to stop there." Dana Gould

Post Sun May 20, 2007 7:22 pm   View user's profile Send private message
fortune cookie



Joined: 18 Mar 2006
Posts: 10534
Location: Easy street
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FattyFattyPorkFace wrote:
And I just said, not knowing...

Look, I don't know. I don't know what the solution is, but that doesn't invalidate my points on the current situation. The world would be a weird place if you couldn't point out problems without having a fresh set of solutions.



True, so very true.
Not trying to invalidate anything.
Merely asking for your ideas.
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We all enter this world in the same way: naked; screaming; soaked in blood.
But if you live your life right, that kind of thing doesn't have to stop there." Dana Gould

Post Sun May 20, 2007 7:28 pm   View user's profile Send private message
FattyFattyPorkFace



Joined: 10 Aug 2004
Posts: 6381
Location: Michigan
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With regards to troops and all this talk of timetables for withdrawal, I have to say that I am with the Bush administration for a change. It seems to me that setting a timetable is an ignorant and short-sighted option that does nothing but give terrorists and insurgents a deadline for when Iraq is handed to them.

We should instead be setting timetables for handover to the Iraqi security forces (like the British did recently south of Basra). This doesn't mean we leave, it means we have handed the main responsibility to Iraq. Then, and only then, can we consider troop withdrawals.

Whether we like it or not, we are in this situation and we can't just walk away. I'm very disappointed in the political posturing that is using timetables for troop withdrawal as though it were just a chess piece for elections.
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Post Sun May 20, 2007 8:14 pm   View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
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