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RedOrcaMoon



Joined: 17 Jun 2005
Posts: 2399
Location: someplace...probably inside my head or in another world
politics question  Reply with quote  

I have a small question, answer it however you want.

how do you get away with taking away a middle class person or a lower class persons right to have health insurance?

this is sounding more and more like the time Marie Antoinette supposedly said "let them eat cake" when the French civilians were suffering, dying broke, and being thrown in the Bastille for no real reason apart from what the police wanted.


so why did he veto the bill for health insurance?

and can someone explain his reasonings to me at all? cause there was too much noise where I was to be able to understand what was going on on MSNBC
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Post Sun Oct 07, 2007 8:56 pm   View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website AIM Address Yahoo Messenger MSN Messenger
leprrkan



Joined: 29 Jul 2007
Posts: 5089
Location: In the home stretch...
 Reply with quote  

I'm assuming you're referring to his recent veto of the bill to expand the CHIP program, which is not general insurance, but is specifically insurance for kids in low- to low/middle-income families.

Short answer? He's a fucktard.

Longer answer? Still a fucktard, but here are his apparent justifications on the veto:
a) it's too expensive (yet somehow millions of dollars daily in Iraq is well within the budget), and
b) he calls it a step toward "federalization" of health care, rather than "privatizing" it (remember the idea of having seniors play the market with their retirement money? That was another of his grand ideas about privatization).

He may well have other reasons he's given since I last watched the news, who knows. But that's the long and short of it. There was an article in Rolling Stone magazine a few months ago that alleges W's plan is to privatize as much as he possibly can in this country; and that Iraq is his rough draft of how that could work. What that means is that instead of having, say FBI agents to work on crimes, a private company would do it. The same for essential and non-essential services across the board. The article also listed several services that he has already "contracted out", among them people who work on our tax returns.
This may not seem like a big deal or a bad thing, and I'm sure that there probably are a few good points to be made in favor of this. But look at the situation in Iraq: all these private companies rushed in to provide services, it was a huge cash cow so who wouldn't want to get in on it? But there is no oversight. Money is mismanaged, misspent and missing. There are no real restrictions or background checks on who is doing what, so you could basically have an armed thug running around in a security guard outfit doing what he/she wants and there's no accountability (Blackwater?). I know war profiteering has always existed, and probably always will, since as long as we have wars we'll have someone who makes a nice buck off of them, but this is the first war of that my generaton is old enough to pay attention to, so it seems more egregious to me.

Back to the original point, I'm not one for saying "more government", but if the government's purpose is to help its people, especially those in most need, isn't it a basic failing of that government to not do so? Insurance is just one drop in a very big bucket. Consider: homelessness, drug/alcohol recovery programs, education, poverty, people being abused, youth programs, programs for the elderly. I know all this stuff cost money, i.e. taxes, but I would rather have my tax money go to things that can actually make a difference rather than a billion dollar tank or bomb. It's like the idea of cutting off funding for drug/alcohol treatment programs or youth centers, is it more cost effective now to take away the money for these things only to turn around and spend 10 times as much on our prison systems, which is where a lot people failed by the system wind up? (And I know that such programs are not a guarantee of keeping someone out of jail. But, in all honesty, do you really think we should be locking up a kid who's selling dime bags to his friends? I know it's illegal, but is it on par with say violent crime, rape or murder?).

Anyway, ROM, sorry about the tangent there, but hope that helps Very Happy
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Post Mon Oct 08, 2007 3:55 am   View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website Yahoo Messenger MSN Messenger
mllefifi



Joined: 28 Jan 2006
Posts: 8964
Location: Deleoware
Re: politics question  Reply with quote  

RedOrcaMoon wrote:
[...] so why did he veto the bill for health insurance?

and can someone explain his reasonings to me at all? cause there was too much noise where I was to be able to understand what was going on on MSNBC

You got me. Shrub went ahead with a big expansion of Medicare by adding prescription coverage, as if it was not a further step toward federalized medicine. Yet this situation is? Question Question Question
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Post Mon Oct 08, 2007 4:10 am   View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website AIM Address
Wingnut



Joined: 22 Aug 2007
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Location: Nanaimo, British Columbia
 Reply with quote  

just remember what HAPPENED to Marie Antoinette, and all the other fucktards who were running France at the time...I'm just sayin'...
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Post Mon Oct 08, 2007 10:25 am   View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail MSN Messenger
leprrkan



Joined: 29 Jul 2007
Posts: 5089
Location: In the home stretch...
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Wingnut... have the black helicopters started circling yet...? Very Happy
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Post Mon Oct 08, 2007 12:55 pm   View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website Yahoo Messenger MSN Messenger
Kar98



Joined: 31 Jul 2006
Posts: 3170
Location: Dallas, Texas
Re: politics question  Reply with quote  

RedOrcaMoon wrote:
this is sounding more and more like the time Marie Antoinette supposedly said "let them eat cake" when the French civilians were suffering, dying broke, and being thrown in the Bastille for no real reason apart from what the police wanted.


At this point, the Bastille was nearly empty of prisoners, housing only seven inmates: four forgers, two "lunatics" and one "deviant" aristocrat, the Comte de Solages (the Marquis de Sade had been transferred out ten days earlier). The cost of maintaining a medieval fortress and garrison for so limited a purpose had led to a decision being taken to close it, shortly before the disturbances began.

And it was actually Maria Theresa of Spain, wife of Louis XIV, who is quoted with "Let them eat cake". Which is /also/ bunk, because what she said was in fact "S'il ait aucun pain, donnez-leur la croűte au loin du pâté" (if there be no bread, give them the crust off of the pâté).

Aren't you glad you learned something today, kiddo?
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Post Mon Oct 08, 2007 4:10 pm   View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website MSN Messenger
juissez



Joined: 08 Mar 2007
Posts: 145
Re: politics question  Reply with quote  

RedOrcaMoon wrote:

how do you get away with taking away a middle class person or a lower class persons right to have health insurance?


I don't have a right to health insurance anymore? But the people at the insurance company have still been taking my checks. Those bastards.

But seriously, you are confusing rights for entitlements. Nobody's rights have been taken away, they are just not getting any new assistance from the government

Post Wed Oct 10, 2007 8:41 am   View user's profile Send private message
Aubie



Joined: 17 Jan 2006
Posts: 1428
Location: Bammer
Re: politics question  Reply with quote  

juissez wrote:
RedOrcaMoon wrote:

how do you get away with taking away a middle class person or a lower class persons right to have health insurance?


I don't have a right to health insurance anymore? But the people at the insurance company have still been taking my checks. Those bastards.

But seriously, you are confusing rights for entitlements. Nobody's rights have been taken away, they are just not getting any new assistance from the government


Word!
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Post Wed Oct 10, 2007 1:28 pm   View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Kar98



Joined: 31 Jul 2006
Posts: 3170
Location: Dallas, Texas
 Reply with quote  

The whole government education system has worked out so well. I sure hope they take over health care next!
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Post Wed Oct 10, 2007 4:37 pm   View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website MSN Messenger
lisa



Joined: 10 Apr 2004
Posts: 6789
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If welfare, insurance, child support, free this, free that is being withdrawn it only means the treasury is getting empty.
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Post Wed Oct 10, 2007 7:53 pm   View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Ferrit Leggings



Joined: 29 Mar 2004
Posts: 2658
 Reply with quote  

lisa wrote:
If welfare, insurance, child support, free this, free that is being withdrawn it only means the treasury is getting empty.


The treasury has been empty for a few years now. That is what happens when the country invades another, occupies another, and is constantly playing war games.

There would be plenty of money for universal health and other programs if the US stopped fucking around in other countries. Nothing gets done here because of constant nitpicking by opposition to anything that means change. People wouldn't mind paying the taxes for programs like health care if they knew it would probably be cheaper than what they were already paying. I would be glad to pay more taxes if my tax money went for something other than how to water board a prisoner in five easy steps without going to jail.

The truth is that we will pay for a war but not for basic human necessities because the poor are expendable.
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Post Wed Oct 10, 2007 9:17 pm   View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Ginjg



Joined: 04 Sep 2004
Posts: 6617
Location: Los Angeles
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yep, the 35 billion needed for the 5 year term of the child health program amounts to less than 4 months spent on the Iraq war.
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Post Wed Oct 10, 2007 11:17 pm   View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website AIM Address
lisa



Joined: 10 Apr 2004
Posts: 6789
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I think the US is earning enough in guns and ganja to keep five Iraq wars rolling. The guys at the top of this racket are money lovers and I refuse to believe that they have emptied their treasury.


You are being made to believe that the money has been spent.
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Post Thu Oct 11, 2007 10:48 am   View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Ginjg



Joined: 04 Sep 2004
Posts: 6617
Location: Los Angeles
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oh, we're well aware of the profiteering and fraud
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Post Thu Oct 11, 2007 11:01 am   View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website AIM Address
Aubie



Joined: 17 Jan 2006
Posts: 1428
Location: Bammer
 Reply with quote  

Quote:
There would be plenty of money for universal health and other programs if the US stopped fucking around in other countries. Nothing gets done here because of constant nitpicking by opposition to anything that means change. People wouldn't mind paying the taxes for programs like health care if they knew it would probably be cheaper than what they were already paying. I would be glad to pay more taxes if my tax money went for something other than how to water board a prisoner in five easy steps without going to jail.


I guess that's why Hillary's plan will repeal all the tax cuts and cost the government more than $110 billion a year. That sounds great!!! Rolling Eyes

Personally, I don't want my yearly hoo-ha exam or my hubby's back surgery to be done by the lowest bidder that the government deems worthy. If you don't think thats the way it will be, you're dillusioned. People think HMOs are bad? Shit, government HC would be insane and probably worse.

The rest is a total tangent, so don't read it if you like the idea of UHC.

People bitch about Big Brother watching them but holy smackdown jesus they want it to pay for every fucking thing. People would mind paying more taxes...taxes suck. They can't even pass a one mill property tax in Alabama to pay for education, you think people are going to pay more in taxes? What if I don't need the HC system? I don't want to pay for it, because I'm petty and know it will be money thrown down the drain. All the pork spending and waste of money in DC and you want those people in charge of billions of dollars and people's lives?

And as much as it sucks, war is going to happen. Iran? Korea? What if they attack us and we cut all of our military/FBI/CIA funding to pay for UHC? You know that's what will happen. Hell, Bill cut it all to nothing. The government's job is to protect it's people, not hand feed them.


Sorry, just a tangent. Take nothing seriously. If the government can't handle military spending I just don't see how putting a government-run billion dollar system into the hands of crooks and that will only be taken advantage of will not bankrupt the country. Hell, just call in all our debts to France and Japan and we'll break even.
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Post Thu Oct 11, 2007 12:43 pm   View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
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