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Report e-mails disagreeing with der Fuehrer, citizen!
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Goudron



Joined: 03 Aug 2004
Posts: 2570
Location: near Cleveland OH
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Maximus wrote:
John Boner


I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks this when I see his name. I suppose we're likely in the majority, I just didn't want to say anything Very Happy
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Post Sun Aug 09, 2009 7:24 pm   View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
fortune cookie



Joined: 18 Mar 2006
Posts: 10534
Location: Easy street
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Kar98 wrote:


I find it impossible to argue with this kind of sound thinking.
You're right.
Now hold still while Max shags you bug-eyed. Wink
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Post Sun Aug 09, 2009 10:53 pm   View user's profile Send private message
chris
Site Admin


Joined: 02 Mar 2004
Posts: 3833
Location: People Republic of Northern California
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L.P. Bowman wrote:
this is the kind of shit that will make Obama a one term president....



If he doesn't fix the economy, he'll be one term president, I'll agree on that, L.P.. But no amount of attempted spin control will effect his re-election. (W got re-elected and the heinous shit his people did for political reasons were way, way beyond collecting e-mail addresses, don't you think?)

This guy ran on trying to fix health care. He ran talking about a public option. Why is anyone even remotely surprised that he's trying to fix health care? And suggesting a public option?

The health care bill talks about "end of life" counseling. (This is actually the only part that I'm familiar with because it's had to be defended and therefore was published greatly.) Making the cost of making living wills paid for by your insurance company. A living will is where you make your wishes known, while you're still relatively healthy, ie. what you want done should you be determined "terminal". You can set the parameters for what and who does that(get's to say you're terminal). You can say in your living will, "As long as you can get a pulse, I don't care if I don't have the brain waves of a carrot, keep me alive." That's all the current proposal says about "end of life" issues.

I totally get why people would be pissed at Obama because of his PR operation. (I'm finding his ubiquity in the media annoying, and I like the guy.) He must have hypnotized everyone who supports him, right? They must be stupid, or Nazis. I know how that feels. I felt the same way about Bush supporters. I still do. (Especially the stupid part. Not so much the Nazi.)

I'm gonna chime in my 2 cents, on the health care thing, then go away, and the heinous fuckery perpetrated by the Whitehouse will have to be something you guys watch. Wait until he lies to get you into a war. Oh man will you be pissed off then!

The bottom line on health care is that unless the government mandates that anyone with a pre-existing condition must be able to buy insurance at the prevailing rate for everyone else, there are going to be uninsured people in this country, who will eventually get health care through Medicaid, once they've bankrupted themselves (that's one of the rules, you can't have assets in excess of a certain amount. When I was a health insurance agent, it was $1600. Yes, that includes your house and/or your car.)So, essentially, the sickest people are left out of the insurance pool. BUT their health care, such as it is, will eventually be paid for by state and federal programs, but on the most inefficient basis available. (Typically, starting in the emergency room and ending in the hospital, with little to no preventative care.)

In the next ten years, a record number of people are going to go on Medicare as the boomers retire. Yes, that's government health insurance. And the cost of health care is rising at roughly three times the rate of inflation, which means that not only will there be more people on public health care, it will cost more than the still-working people will be able to pay.

Costs have to be controlled. The free market is not doing it. (But thanks for suggesting that, Republicans, the unregulated market worked awesome for financial services, though, so thanks for that.) Health care in this country is more expensive than anywhere else in the world, and before you say it's the best, it's not. We rank 37th in quality of health care. Of our health care dollar, between 18 and 30% goes to administrative costs. Countries with nationalized (England) or hybridized (France) systems average 6-7% administrative costs and are ranked 18 and 1 respectively in the quality of health care.

(An aside, as a health insurance broker, which I was for five years in the 80s, I made 50% commission on the first year of any policy I sold. That's right, 50%! To the salesman, before the first temperature was taken, the first aspirin given. My boss made 10% commision on what I sold. So 60% of the premiums went to the sales people. That's administrative cost. )

I have no idea if this 1200 page monstrosity in congress is the best way to approach the problem. I really don't. And if I had a union job like I had when I was on a night crew at a grocery store, I wouldn't want anyone to mess with my insurance. (We had 100% medical, dental, and eyeglasses, for fuck's sake.) But something needs to be done about health care or soon it's going to dominate the national attention the way that banking has. And we're going to all be wondering why someone didn't see this coming. It was so blindingly fucking obvious.

Of course, there is no debate, because everyone is indulging their fears, so nothing can get done.(OMG! my tax dollars will go for abortion, euthanasia, penis pills, and counseling for the soldier who vaporized a wedding party in Afghanistan with a Predator missile when someone fired a rifle in the air in celebration! How will we afford a replacement missile?) We're not going to learn anything, because the Democrats can't explain what they're doing because of the noise, and the Republicans have nothing to say except, well that sounds expensive. (Why do they always want to get all frugal when they're out of power, then spend like crazy people when they're in power? Yes, I'm talking to you Ronald - doubled the national debt- Regan. And you, doubled the national debt again, W.)

Specifics aside, here are the two sides:

Obama: Wants to reform health care.
The Right: Doesn't.

I know why Obama wants to reform health care, I don't know why the Right doesn't. I guess they think it's okay as it is.

So the goal of the Right is to do nothing?

Fine with me. You win. That will look great on your voting record come election time.
"We won! We won!"
"So what did you achieve?"
"Well nothing."
"But what were your goals?"
"Nothing."
"What was your counter proposal?"
"Well, we didn't have one, because we didn't want to do anything."
"What about the stimulus package?"
"Well, we opposed that."
"What was your proposal?
"Well we didn't have one."
"So what were you going to do about the greatest financial meltdown since the Great Depression?"
"Uh, nothing. I mean, we had a budget, there were just no numbers in it."
"So you didn't even have an idea?"
"No, but we were firmly opposed to what they did."
"Awesome. I'll vote for you."

Nobody really has to lie about it. Either way.

Is the administration asking you to rat out people who are spreading misinformation? Sounds like it? That sucks. I would guess, though, that they watched what happened when John Carey decided to ignore misinformation that was spread about him in 2004. (Believe me, no Democrat has forgotten that lesson.)Seems to me the Right is a little spoiled by Democrats who refuse to fight back. I don't think that's what you're dealing with anymore. I think the guys in the Whitehouse will throw down, but I suspect their counter-punches are going to be a bit more elegant than throwing a CIA agent to the wolves and firing a bunch of U.S. Attorneys who disagree with them. So far the Republican party doesn't seem to need any help destroying itself, and I think Sun Tzu said something about never interfering with your enemy when he's doing that.
We'll see.

I'm not saying fighting back will do any good, because there is no bullshit so absurd that a large contingency of voters won't believe it.(Cough - The South-Cough) And democrats aren't really that good at fighting back. We don't do the whole, blind loyalty thing very well, like Bush voters. The Right just may win this whole thing based on shouting people down and making up more absurd bullshit.

And when they do, we'll have the most expensive, 37th best health care system in the world, and the clock can start ticking down for what I suspect will be called The Medical Melt Down.

Oh well. I'm just glad no one has my e-mail address.

Post Mon Aug 10, 2009 1:18 am   View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
imonica



Joined: 22 Apr 2009
Posts: 969
Location: Them thar hills
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And by the way, ladies, if you are under a certain age, you will pay more than men for your health insurance, simply because you have the potential for getting pregnant. (For those of you who can't, you may pay more for whatever problem is causing that.) As you know, a lot of health insurance policies do not cover birth control pills, implants, etc. It wouldn't make a difference if you were on the pill, anyway, because you still have the ability to get pregnant. It doesn't make a difference if you tell them you are choosing not to have children. Basicially, you have to be sterilized, or too old to conceive, in order not to be penalised for having such an amazing ability. The age limit may be raised at some point, because so many women are having children later. I'm not even sure what it is at the moment.

Maybe it wouldn't be so bad if it didn't cost so much to have a baby. In my case, the bills turned out to be nearly $38,000 in total, of which I had to pay $4,000 after insurance. Not an easy thing to do when you're a single mom, but I managed it. I can't imagine what it would be like for someone who couldn't. I guess the taxpayers foot the bill, as A.G. says.

Post Mon Aug 10, 2009 9:21 am   View user's profile Send private message
Lavandula Girl



Joined: 08 Apr 2008
Posts: 1830
Location: A Connecticut Yankee in King Arnold's Court
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It's also very expensive to have those magical parts removed. Had quite a time convincing our insurance co. that if the MD says your parts have pre-cancerous lesions, it is best to remove said parts, rather than wait for actual cancer. Rolling Eyes BUT... if Moneyman had wanted a longer, wider, or more useful part, they'd have covered the viagra. Gah!

Basically, health care is fucked up.

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Post Mon Aug 10, 2009 11:29 am   View user's profile Send private message
fortune cookie



Joined: 18 Mar 2006
Posts: 10534
Location: Easy street
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So my idea of dragging all of the politicians into the streets and hanging them from the streetlights is a go?
Ya kno, as a lesson to those who would take their place.
NO?
Okay Fine!
But what am I gonna do with all this rope? Shaddap.


Very Happy
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But if you live your life right, that kind of thing doesn't have to stop there." Dana Gould


Last edited by fortune cookie on Mon Aug 10, 2009 4:15 pm; edited 1 time in total

Post Mon Aug 10, 2009 12:17 pm   View user's profile Send private message
imonica



Joined: 22 Apr 2009
Posts: 969
Location: Them thar hills
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Well y'all, the US health care "debate" has finally made the news over here. We got to watch clips of anti-reform folks screaming bloody murder and practically frothing at the mouth. Great pics of Obama painted up to look like Hitler, by the way. I hate it when people pull that shit! Are they really comparing Obama to a man who ordered the murders of millions of people? That's just effing sad and pathetic, and pretty embarrassing for me to know that people over here are seeing it. (Not that anyone cares, just sayin')

My husband asked me, "Why don't the people in the US care enough about each other to make sure everyone has access to good health care?" *Sigh* I can't answer that question. I always hope that people care more about each other than I think they do. I agree with A.G. that the current reform bill may not be the right one, but something's gotta change. I hate to think that so many kids will continue to grow up without any health care at all, aside from emergency room visits. That was my childhood. My mom didn't make enough money to pay for health insurance, but she made too much money to get Medicaid. All you can do is try not to get sick (yeah, right) and try not to have any accidents, because if you do, you're screwed.

Post Mon Aug 10, 2009 3:56 pm   View user's profile Send private message
Watching The Wheels



Joined: 22 Dec 2007
Posts: 3412
Location: DC
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Stories like this make me glad I appreciate irony

St Louis Dispatch wrote:
Kenneth Gladney sat in a wheelchair on Pershing Avenue Saturday, his knee bandaged, holding a flag that read: "Don't Tread on Me."

Gladney, 38, was handing out the same flags after a town hall forum in Mehlville Thursday night, when, he says, he was attacked by members of the Service Employees International Union.

[...]

Gladney did not address Saturday's crowd of about 200 people. His attorney, David Brown, however, read a prepared statement Gladney wrote. "A few nights ago there was an assault on my liberty, and on yours, too." Brown read. "This should never happen in this country."

Supporters cheered. Brown finished by telling the crowd that Gladney is accepting donations toward his medical expenses. Gladney told reporters he was recently laid off and has no health insurance.

Also, I love Gladney's version of the night's events.

I was all (affecting British Orphan accent) "guv'ner, would you kindly like an American flag?"
And this SEIU-thug was all "fuck you, patriot! I HATE YOUR FREEDOMS AND YOUR FLAG. ARRRGGHHH!!!"
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Post Mon Aug 10, 2009 4:05 pm   View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website AIM Address
Ginjg



Joined: 04 Sep 2004
Posts: 6617
Location: Los Angeles
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Alternate plan:

Health care insurance is mandatory for all. - just as in most states you must have insurance to register your vehicle.

Insurance companies must insureall
and cover patient's physician determined medically necessary care.
No vanity procedures.
No preexisting condition disqualification - can have a health insurance pool similar to CA earthquake and auto insurance pools.

No more employer provided health care.
Insurers must keep current insured at same group rate.
No more dividing full time jobs into multiple part-time jobs to avoid offering benefits.
Only workers comp insurance required of employer.

Enforced minimum "living wage" set at 1.25 x a rate high enough to cover all basic human needs - basic housing, food, basic utilities, clothing, transportation, health insurance plus 100% ssi contribution. - the .25 covers incidentals and unforeseeables.

No withholding taxes other than ssi until income exceeds annual full time minimum wage. Adequate deductibles for dependents, higher education and necessary extraordinary expenses there after.

This also sets an incentive to keep all prices down because any inflation triggers a rise in minimum wage.
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Post Mon Aug 10, 2009 8:31 pm   View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website AIM Address
mllefifi



Joined: 28 Jan 2006
Posts: 8964
Location: Deleoware
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Ginjg wrote:
Alternate plan:

Health care insurance is mandatory for all. - just as in most states you must have insurance to register your vehicle. [...]


Beyond those things, there should be an honest examination of pricing overall: does a procedure or an aspirin really have to cost so much in a hospital or clinic? What hidden or transferred charges are there? Why can't the government (federal or state) negotiate pricing on prescription drugs? -- I mean, since the drug companies obviously have so much extra income to spend on overly long TV commercials and glossy print-ads, that must mean that they have plenty of money leftover for research, right? And, therefore, if they were to drop the mostly unnecessary advertising from their budgets, they could drop prices on their drugs, no?

Related to pricing is administrative costs. (But heaven forbid that we eliminated unnecessary administrators...)

Another thing: if the for-profit health insurance companies are so much against a "government-run" plan and think it will put them out of business, why haven't they been put out of business already -- by Medicare, Medicaid, CHIP, veteran's hospitals, and the health-care plans of federal workers and the military? It's rather hard to believe such a concern of the for-profit health industry in general if they're not just as much against THOSE already existing "government-run" plans as the proposed new "public option." Maybe they might "compete" better if they decided -- with some sort of incentive -- to convert into non-profit companies. (Heaven forbid, though, that health care in the USA should be a non-profit enterprise.)

Then there's malpractice insurance and costs related to that, but I don't know enough about those things to have even an uninformed opinion on them... Wink
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Post Tue Aug 11, 2009 5:50 am   View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website AIM Address
Ginjg



Joined: 04 Sep 2004
Posts: 6617
Location: Los Angeles
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the vast majority of R&D is done and or funded by NIH (your tax $ at work). Pharma doesn't really begin incurring costs until human trials begin.

And yes, all those pricing areas do need to be addressed. The devil's always in the details, ya know.
I was just riffing on the basics of my naive little alt plan.
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Post Tue Aug 11, 2009 12:03 pm   View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website AIM Address
LostInWalmart



Joined: 26 Jun 2006
Posts: 1900
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FYI - A note from the inside of biotech: it takes about a billion dollars to bring a drug to market, from research to putting it on the shelves. That's a thousand million for you UK people. Only after that can we, ahem, they become evil coprorations gouging you with overpriced drugs. You're welcome.

Post Tue Aug 11, 2009 12:38 pm   View user's profile Send private message
Ginjg



Joined: 04 Sep 2004
Posts: 6617
Location: Los Angeles
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LostInWalmart wrote:
FYI - A note from the inside of biotech: it takes about a billion dollars to bring a drug to market, from research to putting it on the shelves. That's a thousand million for you UK people. Only after that can we, ahem, they become evil coprorations gouging you with overpriced drugs. You're welcome.
but they include the costs of research that NIH already did or paid for in their accounting. If they repaid NIH that would be fair, but no.
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To Learn is to Know
To Know is to Love
To Love is our aim

~~~~~~~

Why should we bother with immortality when we are eternal?

Post Tue Aug 11, 2009 3:21 pm   View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website AIM Address
Tito



Joined: 30 Mar 2004
Posts: 1203
Location: is everything
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I say eliminate all health care for the next fifty years or until we get the population back down to about 3 billion. Let's get a little natural selection going to improve the stock.

Post Tue Aug 11, 2009 5:17 pm   View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
LostInWalmart



Joined: 26 Jun 2006
Posts: 1900
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Ginj, all pharm research doesn't begin with NIH. my company, nameless of course, does its own bench-research, so the cost is an actual cost, not a paper one. Some companies buy drugs that have been had pre-clinical studies completed by other companies, the combined cost (both companies) is still figured in the entire cost of development.

Some things do come out of NIH, specifically stem cell research, post-FDA approval combination studies, oncology studies, although that all also done by private companies.

Also, you can't repay the government since it isn't a profit-based entity (clearly). In other words, the research is done for the sake of research, not for the sake of profit. The results are provided by the government to the public, they aren't sold. We don't pay NASA for velcro and TANG or ballpoint pens, or zero-gravity toilets (not sure about that last one).

Still, we can be very, very evil.

Post Wed Aug 12, 2009 8:14 am   View user's profile Send private message
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