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Abortion
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girlEgirl



Joined: 19 Oct 2007
Posts: 6412
Location: olympia, wa
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FattyFattyPorkFace wrote:
Tito wrote:
I can't believe I'm not going to jump in on this one.


Ha! I was just thinking about you on this thread (not in terms of abortion, I'm not horrible) and wondering if I should troll you in or not - I decided not, and then you appeared.

I can't believe I'm not going to jump in either.


i'm just gonna sit over here in the corner with ffpf and tito, pretendin to read my new library book. (hello kitty must die)
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Post Thu May 27, 2010 11:45 am   View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
simba major



Joined: 29 Apr 2010
Posts: 626
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FattyFattyPorkFace wrote:
simba major wrote:
Goudron wrote:
mllefifi wrote:

(2) Miscarriage, which is mentioned several times in the bible (and usually characterized as a curse), seems to get no attention from the religious pro-forced-birth movement, even though it constitutes abortion (albeit the "natural" or "spontaneous" type, rather than elective or forced). In view of the fact that many miscarriages today can be prevented, the omission or sidelining of miscarriage is quite glaring.


Quote:
EXACTLY.


My feeling is that allowing a spontaeous miscarriage is a different kettle of fish, something like "leaving it in the hands of God." A much different thing than an intentional abortion.


How ridiculously convenient. Hide behind God's will when it suits us and then claim God gave us free will when it doesn't. Fascinating bullshit once again.

If you have a view on abortion, make it your view - don't hide behind God.


Wow, that's harsh.

And not entirely logical.
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Post Thu May 27, 2010 11:54 am   View user's profile Send private message
Tito



Joined: 30 Mar 2004
Posts: 1203
Location: is everything
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buh-bye.

Last edited by Tito on Tue Jul 06, 2010 4:20 pm; edited 1 time in total

Post Thu May 27, 2010 12:31 pm   View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
simba major



Joined: 29 Apr 2010
Posts: 626
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Sounds like a decent enough kingdom.
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Post Thu May 27, 2010 12:34 pm   View user's profile Send private message
FattyFattyPorkFace



Joined: 10 Aug 2004
Posts: 6381
Location: Michigan
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Tito wrote:
Ah, what the hell.

Here's what's going to happen when I'm king:

Mandatory sex education beginning in the third grade. Universal and free access to all birth control. More research into male birth control. "Morning after" pills available without a prescription though maybe consult with a nurse practitioner or something first. I'll get back to you on this one.

No abortion for any pregnancy resulting from consensual sex (other than the morning after option listed above). Any other abortion to be approved by a judge. Both parents to be financially liable for any child. If you know that sex can result in pregnancy and you do it anyway without protecting yourself, well, tough beans as far as I'm concerned. If you can't handle having a child, or if you can't handle being financially responsible, then don't have sex. Anyone calling their child a parasite (without providing appropriate documentation, like tuition receipts for U. C. Berkely) will be re-educated.

This will be the policy until forced (reversible) sterilization becomes an option. Then we will go into my licensing requirements. If you don't like the above, well, move the hell out of my kingdom.

Have as much sex as you want but be responsible for all possible consequences, including disease, pregnancy, death, and being broke the rest of your life. When enacted, my laws shall be referred to as "The Defense of Oral Sex Act."

And god has nothing to do with any of this. I'm King of Kings in my imaginary kingdom.


If I could vote for a monarch rather than just being told who it is, I'd vote for you.
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Post Thu May 27, 2010 12:46 pm   View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Goudron



Joined: 03 Aug 2004
Posts: 2570
Location: near Cleveland OH
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simba major wrote:
FattyFattyPorkFace wrote:
simba major wrote:

My feeling is that allowing a spontaeous miscarriage is a different kettle of fish, something like "leaving it in the hands of God." A much different thing than an intentional abortion.


How ridiculously convenient. Hide behind God's will when it suits us and then claim God gave us free will when it doesn't. Fascinating bullshit once again.

If you have a view on abortion, make it your view - don't hide behind God.


Wow, that's harsh.

And not entirely logical.


Harsh, and possibly illogical, and sure it's a different kettle of fish - but why can (usually fundamentalist) pro-lifers get all frothy at the mouth about lives lost due to abortion (akin to "murder") but couldn't give two shits about miscarriage (akin to "letting a blind/deaf/dumb person walk off a cliff")? They ought to be advocating fertility research to stop the millions of people dying every X amount of time due to miscarriages we could be preventing by mandating fertility improvements. Every sperm, and all that.
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Post Thu May 27, 2010 3:00 pm   View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Uptown_Toodeloo



Joined: 10 Mar 2008
Posts: 530
Location: St. Augustine, FL
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Stir the pot, stir the pot...

I find it kind of funny that the same people who yell the loudest about abortion and how wrong it is are the same people who think it is ok to invade other countries because of a separate ideology.

As for is it ok? Abortion is 100% subjective on whether it is right or wrong. I personally don't like the idea, but i would never stop someone else from making her own decision. If it was my wife, I would hope we could talk about it first, but it comes down to being her decision, her body. Same for my daughter.

There is no definitive right or wrong, good or evil, only shades of what you personally find acceptable in behavior. We hope for cohesion in these understandings.
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Post Thu May 27, 2010 3:22 pm   View user's profile Send private message
girlEgirl



Joined: 19 Oct 2007
Posts: 6412
Location: olympia, wa
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Uptown_Toodeloo wrote:
Stir the pot, stir the pot...

I find it kind of funny that the same people who yell the loudest about abortion and how wrong it is are the same people who think it is ok to invade other countries because of a separate ideology.

As for is it ok? Abortion is 100% subjective on whether it is right or wrong. I personally don't like the idea, but i would never stop someone else from making her own decision. If it was my wife, I would hope we could talk about it first, but it comes down to being her decision, her body. Same for my daughter.

There is no definitive right or wrong, good or evil, only shades of what you personally find acceptable in behavior. We hope for cohesion in these understandings.



word.
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Post Thu May 27, 2010 3:23 pm   View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
simba major



Joined: 29 Apr 2010
Posts: 626
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Goudron wrote:
simba major wrote:
FattyFattyPorkFace wrote:
simba major wrote:

My feeling is that allowing a spontaeous miscarriage is a different kettle of fish, something like "leaving it in the hands of God." A much different thing than an intentional abortion.


How ridiculously convenient. Hide behind God's will when it suits us and then claim God gave us free will when it doesn't. Fascinating bullshit once again.

If you have a view on abortion, make it your view - don't hide behind God.


Wow, that's harsh.

And not entirely logical.


Harsh, and possibly illogical, and sure it's a different kettle of fish - but why can (usually fundamentalist) pro-lifers get all frothy at the mouth about lives lost due to abortion (akin to "murder") but couldn't give two shits about miscarriage (akin to "letting a blind/deaf/dumb person walk off a cliff")? They ought to be advocating fertility research to stop the millions of people dying every X amount of time due to miscarriages we could be preventing by mandating fertility improvements. Every sperm, and all that.


How do you figure they don't care about miscarriages?
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Post Thu May 27, 2010 3:27 pm   View user's profile Send private message
simba major



Joined: 29 Apr 2010
Posts: 626
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Uptown_Toodeloo wrote:
Stir the pot, stir the pot...

I find it kind of funny that the same people who yell the loudest about abortion and how wrong it is are the same people who think it is ok to invade other countries because of a separate ideology.

As for is it ok? Abortion is 100% subjective on whether it is right or wrong. I personally don't like the idea, but i would never stop someone else from making her own decision. If it was my wife, I would hope we could talk about it first, but it comes down to being her decision, her body. Same for my daughter.

There is no definitive right or wrong, good or evil, only shades of what you personally find acceptable in behavior. We hope for cohesion in these understandings.


I think that you're making some massive generalizations the and globalizing to boot.
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Post Thu May 27, 2010 3:30 pm   View user's profile Send private message
Goudron



Joined: 03 Aug 2004
Posts: 2570
Location: near Cleveland OH
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simba major wrote:

How do you figure they don't care about miscarriages?


"Couldn't give two shits about" - improper wording maybe.

Most everyone who hears about an expectant mother miscarrying feels some sadness and empathy, etc. Most miscarriages go unnoticed though, the little guy/gal to be doesn't implant in the womb, no one even knows there was a zygote to begin with.

I know the pro-lifers I've asked about this don't care because they say so. It's not their concern. It's nature or God at work. It's still a bunch of lost lives that we choose to do nothing about unless we're trying to conceive. I understand abortion will get a bigger rise because it requires an action on our part to do it, but the difference in reaction is too vast for me to comprehend.
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Post Thu May 27, 2010 3:42 pm   View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
sgt_steve



Joined: 18 Jan 2005
Posts: 5197
Location: Michissippi
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I'm going to put words in someone's mouth here, or rather, attempt to explain a viewpoint that's usually mis-characterized.

Folks look at the anti-abortion crowd and say "you only care about fetuses, not about what happens to them after they're born." That is both untrue, and misses one of the prime points of the anti-abortion crowd.

Bear in mind as you read this that the folks I'm talking about believe that from the moment of conception there is an ensouled human being present. Not all people opposed to abortion believe that, but a lot of the arguments about anti-abortion people being inconsistent in their beliefs focuses on the argument that the a-a crowd cares more about unborn children than born ones.

The point that's missed is fairly simple. When you regard a fetus as a human being, the intentional destruction of that fetus is murder. Indeed, it's one foulest sorts of murder: the murder of a baby with the consent and participation of the parent. Parental infanticide. If you believe that a fetus is a fully ensouled human being, you believe that abortion is murder most foul.

To that crowd, a 'natural' miscarriage is a tragedy, but it's not a willful act on the part of a parent. It's an accidental loss of a human being, no different than any other 'natural' death. But it's not a cause for outrage against the parents.

As for the anti-abortion crowd not caring about what happens to a baby after it's born - simply not true. The opponents of that crowd are projecting what *they* think should be done with an unwanted child, then pillorying them for not taking those actions. That crowd adopts, gives to charity, volunteers for Big Brothers, etc, etc, just as much as anyone else. In my opinion they're quite likely to take in a child, whether formally or informally, when there's a need. They just don't think there should be a governmental system to do it.

What they *do* get outraged about - what I think we'd all get outraged about - is the murder of a child. Where we part company is whether or not that conceptus/embryo/fetus is a child.

Post Thu May 27, 2010 3:43 pm   View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Goudron



Joined: 03 Aug 2004
Posts: 2570
Location: near Cleveland OH
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sgt_steve wrote:
I'm going to put words in someone's mouth here, or rather, attempt to explain a viewpoint that's usually mis-characterized.

Folks look at the anti-abortion crowd and say "you only care about fetuses, not about what happens to them after they're born." That is both untrue, and misses one of the prime points of the anti-abortion crowd.

Bear in mind as you read this that the folks I'm talking about believe that from the moment of conception there is an ensouled human being present. Not all people opposed to abortion believe that, but a lot of the arguments about anti-abortion people being inconsistent in their beliefs focuses on the argument that the a-a crowd cares more about unborn children than born ones.

The point that's missed is fairly simple. When you regard a fetus as a human being, the intentional destruction of that fetus is murder. Indeed, it's one foulest sorts of murder: the murder of a baby with the consent and participation of the parent. Parental infanticide. If you believe that a fetus is a fully ensouled human being, you believe that abortion is murder most foul.

To that crowd, a 'natural' miscarriage is a tragedy, but it's not a willful act on the part of a parent. It's an accidental loss of a human being, no different than any other 'natural' death. But it's not a cause for outrage against the parents.

As for the anti-abortion crowd not caring about what happens to a baby after it's born - simply not true. The opponents of that crowd are projecting what *they* think should be done with an unwanted child, then pillorying them for not taking those actions. That crowd adopts, gives to charity, volunteers for Big Brothers, etc, etc, just as much as anyone else. In my opinion they're quite likely to take in a child, whether formally or informally, when there's a need. They just don't think there should be a governmental system to do it.

What they *do* get outraged about - what I think we'd all get outraged about - is the murder of a child. Where we part company is whether or not that conceptus/embryo/fetus is a child.


Definitely the best explanation I've seen so far regarding miscarriage, but it still doesn't sit well with me. Accidents happen, but many are preventable. If there was a platform at work with no guard rail, it wouldn't take millions of my coworkers falling off of it to their death before someone got the idea to put a guard rail up. That's right, I just compared a woman's womb to a cold hard steel platform. Abortion talk can turn me into such a douche.

Regarding the belief of a human soul at conception, there's just no arguing about that. That's why I choose not to Smile
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Post Thu May 27, 2010 3:55 pm   View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
simba major



Joined: 29 Apr 2010
Posts: 626
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Well put, Sgt. Steve, and I agree completely.

At the risk of repeating myself, I'm okay with morning after pills but I think that late term abortions are the foulest kind of murder - I'm just not sure where the line is crossed although I do feel that it's closer to the beginning than it is to the end.

Our position as a society seems to be that the immature human being has no rights, not even the most basic right (to life itself) simply because it is still in the womb - location, location, location - condems us.

It is horrifying to me thgat a grownup's convenience trumps a baby's right to exist. -t's absolutely heartless.

I can accept that there are certain tragic situations that justify abortion, but I can't avvept a blanket "my body, my choice" as one of them.
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Post Thu May 27, 2010 3:57 pm   View user's profile Send private message
imonica



Joined: 22 Apr 2009
Posts: 969
Location: Them thar hills
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I'm going to bring up another point. Abortion is something that is going to happen, no matter what you do to try and regulate it, or if you have an all-out ban on it. If it's legal, women will have it done legally, and deal with all that entails. Make it illegal, and they will either do it themselves, or have it done by what they used to call backstreet butchers. In the latter cases, you will often have no one to prosecute afterwards, because they will be dead, too. For the ones who live, you will have to make the decision as to whether or not you will prosecute and imprison them, some of them being quite young, mind. Some of them will also have been victims of rape and incest. You will also find more girls hiding their pregnancies and leaving their babies in dumpsters, etc.

There is a price to pay, any way you look at it. You need to be quite sure you are willing to pay that price.

Post Thu May 27, 2010 5:07 pm   View user's profile Send private message
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