Christopher Moore Home Page

The bulletin board is currently closed to new posts. Instead, why not check out Chris' Twitter and Facebook pages?


bbs.chrismoore.com Forum Index -> Politics

Abortion
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4 ... 15, 16, 17  Next
  Author    Thread This forum is locked: you cannot post, reply to, or edit topics. This topic is locked: you cannot edit posts or make replies.
Tito



Joined: 30 Mar 2004
Posts: 1203
Location: is everything
 Reply with quote  

buh-bye.

Last edited by Tito on Tue Jul 06, 2010 4:20 pm; edited 1 time in total

Post Thu May 27, 2010 5:42 pm   View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Jinxted



Joined: 15 Mar 2010
Posts: 487
Location: Dorrtuckey, Michigan
 Reply with quote  

I'll drop in here with only a quick note and a smidge of backstory

Backstory, The wife and I are 40, we have 3 marriages and 6 children between us, she has given birth to 5 and I am the sire (give me no shit on this, as I think of all as mine so I am father to all) to 3 (1 before I met my wife, my wife is a step-mother to 1 although we have custody of him and he lives with us, and raises him as her own. A very mathematical backstory indeed.

We are both pro-choice, we dont agree on all things politically but on this we are resolute, and none of this late term business, you know after 5 weeks and even sooner for folks using science to gauge their pregnancy. A choice needs to be made very early in a pregnancy, there is no dithering into a second tri, decisions are made and lived with.

I, as a male and as a human cannot possibly ever have the arrogance or presumption to tell a female and another human to give birth to a child she does not want.
_________________
Go home and perpetrate no weird shit until I am well drunk, and had several days to sleep it off.

Post Thu May 27, 2010 5:48 pm   View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Yahoo Messenger
simba major



Joined: 29 Apr 2010
Posts: 626
 Reply with quote  

So it's all about the women?

What about the babies?
_________________
There is nowhere I would be than right here, right now, doing exactly what I'm doing.

Post Thu May 27, 2010 6:03 pm   View user's profile Send private message
Tito



Joined: 30 Mar 2004
Posts: 1203
Location: is everything
 Reply with quote  

buh-bye.

Last edited by Tito on Tue Jul 06, 2010 4:20 pm; edited 1 time in total

Post Thu May 27, 2010 7:20 pm   View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
simba major



Joined: 29 Apr 2010
Posts: 626
 Reply with quote  

People these days don't want to hear avout consequences much less accept them, but that is the single most reliable indicator of a little thing called "maturity"..
_________________
There is nowhere I would be than right here, right now, doing exactly what I'm doing.

Post Thu May 27, 2010 7:54 pm   View user's profile Send private message
girlEgirl



Joined: 19 Oct 2007
Posts: 6412
Location: olympia, wa
 Reply with quote  

Tito wrote:
Jinxted wrote:
I, as a male and as a human cannot possibly ever have the arrogance or presumption to tell a female and another human to give birth to a child she does not want.


As king, and per my specifications above, I could. It is about choice. When you choose to have sex, both partners should be prepared to deal with the consequences.






but only ONE partner has to spend 9 months incubating another life and then another year or so breastfeeding. the old saying that you lose a tooth for every baby is because of the calcium depletion suffered during pregnancy. it is very hard on some women physically to carry a baby to term. some women develop gestational diabetes. some women are addicted to crack or speed, and KNOW that they not only won't be able to stop. some women can't afford food for the babies they have now. (i was essentially homeless and had no access to health care or even healthy food during the first six months of my pregnancy, and i spent most of every day struggling not to hitchike back to sf for heroin. . and although people are always telling me that i'm smart and i had been intellectually aware of where babies come from since i was six, i still didn't think that it could "happen" to me. i had less sex than most everyone that i knew. (when calico was conceived i was 28 and it was with my second boyfriend, second sex partner) i also had stopped menstruating because of the heroin and seriously thought i couldn't conceive.

i'm sure in you're perfect kingdom there will be no health problems or poverty. (because overpopulation never leads to such things) but here in this world, abortion exists because people do NOT often have sex because of love and desire. it's often about insecurity and power and finances. also, how consensual is consensual? if an emotionally immature young woman that has gone her whole life without any love or attention is pressured into having unprotected sex, should she spend the rest of her life making up for this mistake.

BUT if abortion is murder, then adoption is abandoning you're child to people that you cannot be sure will take care off them. (because here in the real world, people that sometimes give awesome first impressions turn out to be sadistic sociopaths) and to me leaving a newborn with at best , what seem like kindly strangers that you know only a little about. or at worst, at the mercy of a system that EVERYBODY (especially the anti-choice types) agrees is hopelessly fucked up, overburdened and underfunded.

i personally don't think that relatively quick painless death is any worse than a lifetime of abuse and neglect. i know that for the healthy and lucky babies(IE WHITE), this isn't always inevitable, but it usually is for the drug addicted, malnourished ones.

of course i know abortion is bad, it's fucking horrific!!! it's also bad to hit you're kid's with a belt , and it's bad to barely feed you're kids and blame them for you're problems, but all of this is a daily occurrence in my neighborhood. AND THESE ARE THE PEOPLE THAT DECIDED TO GIVE BIRTH, AND WEREN'T FORCED INTO IT!!! now imagine the fanfuckingtastic job that people who are dragged away from their education, careers, or even the children that they already have a hard time taking care of, to suck it up and take responsibility for a drunken one night stand that they barely remember. seriously people, as harsh as the world is, babies should be utterly cherished, not an enforced consequence.

so in summation if you force people to have children they are adamant about not having, it is the children themselves that will suffer. death is bad, but abject misery, abuse, and starvation is also very bad.

(i know i'm probably not getting my point across, and i tried not to get sucked in, but i've been hearing the opinions of my hardcore catholic relatives on this subject all my life. the same ones that didn't acknowledge calico's birth as a joyous event, because it happened out of wedlock, instead of being happy that against all statistical odds i stopped doing heroin after 7 years and that i do my best every day to be the best mother i can be. despite having lived in a city where an abortion was legal and safe.)

oh yeah and by the way as much as getting pregnant was an abstract concept to me before it happened, since the big event (you know the 48 hour labor ending in the scariest pain imaginable. an event that could have very possibly killed me. all the time overshadowed by the desperate fear that i wouldn't be able to do right by this kid) i haven't even kissed anyone and plan to never have sex again , because as it turns out...that shit can get you pregnant!!! (thank god for the sex-drive killing effects of long-term methadone maintenance!)

steps off soap-box, dusting off hands, confident that everyone will realize that her point of veiw is the most valid and relevant.
Twisted Evil
_________________
clowns are people too...people who want to hurt you.

Post Thu May 27, 2010 9:27 pm   View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Tito



Joined: 30 Mar 2004
Posts: 1203
Location: is everything
 Reply with quote  

buh-bye.

Last edited by Tito on Tue Jul 06, 2010 4:21 pm; edited 1 time in total

Post Thu May 27, 2010 9:52 pm   View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Ginjg



Joined: 04 Sep 2004
Posts: 6617
Location: Los Angeles
 Reply with quote  

It is physically possible for a male to carry a pregnancy. An embryo can be implanted in the peritoneal cavity, be carried to term. At that point, it make's no difference, mail or female. Certainly it would need to be delivered by c-section.

It'd be extremely risky, as unlike in the uterus, the placental tissue intermingles with what ever organ surface it's drawing blood from and separation would be anything but routine.

Men have all the equipment to lactate, as well. So step up daddy-o

Twisted Evil
_________________
To Learn is to Know
To Know is to Love
To Love is our aim

~~~~~~~

Why should we bother with immortality when we are eternal?

Post Thu May 27, 2010 10:52 pm   View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website AIM Address
Tito



Joined: 30 Mar 2004
Posts: 1203
Location: is everything
 Reply with quote  

buh-bye.

Last edited by Tito on Tue Jul 06, 2010 4:21 pm; edited 1 time in total

Post Thu May 27, 2010 11:08 pm   View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
zendao42



Joined: 05 Sep 2006
Posts: 13570
Location: Somewhere in a galaxy near you
 Reply with quote  

Jinxted wrote:

A choice needs to be made very early in a pregnancy, there is no dithering into a second tri, decisions are made and lived with.


That's why courts should never be involved- there ain't no time for that bs!

Tito wrote:
zendao42 wrote:

Well, yeah cuz until then it's actually a parasite


Ok, maybe I'll just dip my toe in a little.

Parasitism is a type of symbiotic relationship between organisms of different species where one organism, the parasite, benefits at the expense of the host.

That's the wikipedia definition but outside of NOW and PP pamphlets I'd say it's pretty much the accepted definition. Last I checked, zygots/embryos/fetuses are still the same species as their "host".


Presumably, but you don't actually know that til birth occurs-
don't read much horror or have many blackouts, do you? Razz

In my queendom, men who oppose all abortion will be forced
to carry a fetus of the species they hate most to term-
good luck if you hate elephants... Twisted Evil

Post Fri May 28, 2010 12:52 am   View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Uptown_Toodeloo



Joined: 10 Mar 2008
Posts: 530
Location: St. Augustine, FL
 Reply with quote  

simba major wrote:
Uptown_Toodeloo wrote:
Stir the pot, stir the pot...

I find it kind of funny that the same people who yell the loudest about abortion and how wrong it is are the same people who think it is ok to invade other countries because of a separate ideology.

As for is it ok? Abortion is 100% subjective on whether it is right or wrong. I personally don't like the idea, but i would never stop someone else from making her own decision. If it was my wife, I would hope we could talk about it first, but it comes down to being her decision, her body. Same for my daughter.

There is no definitive right or wrong, good or evil, only shades of what you personally find acceptable in behavior. We hope for cohesion in these understandings.


I think that you're making some massive generalizations the and globalizing to boot.


Of course I am talking in mass generalizations, there is no other way to discuss this topic. Every individual is just that, and therefore this whole topic is subjective. To talk outside of generalizations is to assume that I understand exactly what every other person thinks and feels.

The issue of murder because of a soul being present keeps coming up. So what about the people who don't belive that there is such a thing? Are you or I going to be arrogant enough the say,

"Well it must be murder because I belive there is a soul, and obviously your are mistaken in your belief, since I am clearly correct."

See, there is no clear answer to any of this because the whole issue comes back to the individual and his/her understanding of the world. What seems evil to one person is not to another. So who is right?

No absolutes, no overriding right or wrong, no complete good or evil. Makes the world a bit ambiguous, but such is existence. This goes for most global issues, so sure I am talking in Globalized Generalizations, but you have to when discussing this type of topic. Same goes for religion, it is all internal belief structures. It really doesn't matter what I think, because what I think only truly applies to me, and I can't expect others to share it.

I am likely to find others who do share it, but I can't expect it.

So I am personally pro choice because it doesn't matter to the person next door whether I think it is right or wrong, and they will have to live with their own decisions. If they are comfortable with them, then why can't I be?
_________________
"The most beautiful experience we can have is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion that stands at the cradle of true art and true science." - Albert Einstein

Post Fri May 28, 2010 4:20 am   View user's profile Send private message
simba major



Joined: 29 Apr 2010
Posts: 626
 Reply with quote  

GEg, that's a moving and heart warming/rending story.

It's hard after hearing it to do anything but stand back and respect it.

But I do have to observe that it sounds as though your baby just may have saved your life.
_________________
There is nowhere I would be than right here, right now, doing exactly what I'm doing.

Post Fri May 28, 2010 4:28 am   View user's profile Send private message
simba major



Joined: 29 Apr 2010
Posts: 626
 Reply with quote  

UT, yes I believe that abortion is murder because the fetus has a soul I am also arrogant enough to believe that adults have souls which is part of why it's wrong to murder them.

Wow, am I ever arrogant.
_________________
There is nowhere I would be than right here, right now, doing exactly what I'm doing.

Post Fri May 28, 2010 4:34 am   View user's profile Send private message
girlEgirl



Joined: 19 Oct 2007
Posts: 6412
Location: olympia, wa
 Reply with quote  

Ginjg wrote:
It is physically possible for a male to carry a pregnancy. An embryo can be implanted in the peritoneal cavity, be carried to term. At that point, it make's no difference, mail or female. Certainly it would need to be delivered by c-section.

It'd be extremely risky, as unlike in the uterus, the placental tissue intermingles with what ever organ surface it's drawing blood from and separation would be anything but routine.

Men have all the equipment to lactate, as well. So step up daddy-o

Twisted Evil


dude that's a great solution, take the embryo outta the woman that isn't up to it, and place it into the body of a male pro-lifer. EVERYBODY WINS!!!!

this idea reminds me of a bumber sticker i once saw, "if men got pregnant, abortion would be a sacrament"
_________________
clowns are people too...people who want to hurt you.

Post Fri May 28, 2010 6:21 am   View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
girlEgirl



Joined: 19 Oct 2007
Posts: 6412
Location: olympia, wa
 Reply with quote  

Tito wrote:
girlEgirl wrote:
but only ONE partner has to spend 9 months incubating another life and then another year or so breastfeeding.


I would if I could but, alas, biology prevents me from doing so and why should I be punished because of cruel quirk of chromosomes? Male and female aren't opposite, they are complimentary, two to tango and all that, and if we are willing to make males assume their share of responsibility for a child, then those same males should have a say in whether the pregnancy continues. It's not just the woman's fetus - she's the incubator (which, I know, is as bad as calling the fetus a parasite) - it's both parents' fetus and it's just a cruel twist of biology that makes the female shoulder (or uter) the tough part.

But back to my kingdom. You were educated. You had access to birth control. You had access to morning after meds. You chose to have sex, knowing that sex can lead to pregnancy. Sorry. You made a choice and now you have to bear the consequences for that choice. Now you and your partner must deal with it. Don't argue with me or you shall be re-educated too.


in that kingdom, if you really got people to understand how hard pregnancy and parenting are, nobody would get pregnant and the human race would die out. but before that my queendom would usurp (not lead by woman , but by drag-queens) you're lands and free you're incub..um i mean woman. because when you start telling other people what to ndo with their own bodies that's pretty oppressive.
_________________
clowns are people too...people who want to hurt you.

Post Fri May 28, 2010 6:31 am   View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
  Display posts from previous:      
This forum is locked: you cannot post, reply to, or edit topics. This topic is locked: you cannot edit posts or make replies.

Jump to:  
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4 ... 15, 16, 17  Next

Last Thread | Next Thread  >

Forum Rules:
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum

 
Templates created by Vereor and Ken