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should things that are unhealthy be illegal?
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girlEgirl



Joined: 19 Oct 2007
Posts: 6412
Location: olympia, wa
should things that are unhealthy be illegal?  Reply with quote  

in one of my attempts to change the subject in another thread i brought this up...

simba i'm truly sorry that you're friends lost the battle with addiction, but i honestly believe that the laws regarding hard drugs are ridiculous and do far more harm than good.

i mean think about it. what are some of the well known dangers of being a junkie? infections caused by lack of f.d.a. sanitation regulations during processing, and storage. which causes abscesses, chronic Cellulitis, or the more deadly Endocarditis. o.d.'ing is mostly caused by the impossibility of predicting the strength of each batch.

the financial impact on peoples lives is what get's in the way of supporting themselves and their families, the only reason that drugs are so expensive is that the distributors, are risking their freedom to procure and distribute it..

the extreme expense and subsequent stress also contributes to both mental and physical health problems, also the combination of the high price and the difficulty of finding dependable providers makes getting to work on time much trickier, but if you could buy it over the counter, for a reasonable price, even daily use wouldn't prevent most anyone from doing their job's. the extreme expense and subsequent stress also contributes to both mental and physical health problems, made worse by the inability to buy healthy (or any) food.

if they marketed and sold dope with the same enthusiasm they do with alcohol and tobacco products, they could create new jobs AND tax the fuck out of it. people that are drawn to self-medication because of preexisting chemical imbalances are further isolated by having to constantly conceal their addiction for fear of being looked down upon, rejected or even arrested. if people didn't treat them like criminals, they would be much more likely to seek professional help and counseling. (and less likely to become criminals)

don't get me wrong, i'm not suggesting that anyone should start taking hard drug's, especially if they have kids, but i don't see why legalizing or at the VERY LEAST decriminalizing, possession and distribution would cause any significant rise in use. in fact, for someone immature like me the concept of being an outlaw only increased the appeal.

plus once again i personally think that since {morbidly obese---sortaexjunkie---welfare mothers} aren't properly represented in the us government, that not only do they not have my best interests at heart , but chances are they wouldn't have a clue as to what my best interests are. so what makes them qualified to tell me what to put inside my own body for recreation , or for that matter, who to fall in love with and marry. (but that's a whole other rant)


heroin has essentially the same effect as oxycontin, which is the time release version of oxycodone (percaset) which is sold over the counter in mexico and possibly canada...(wingnut??) and as is the case with the far more socially acceptable,legal alternatives, (alcohol and cigarettes and gambling) there certainly exists a the strong possibility of addiction, and a myriad of inevitable physical side effects; constipation, loss of sex drive (YAY!!!) sleepiness, craving sweets ect... a lot of the same side effects associated with anti-depressants, which doctor's hand out like beads at mardi gras to me this demonstrates a strange double standard

why are doctors so very careful not give you opiates for pain to people like me that have years of experience with them, but practically shove new antidepressants down my throat, with the lame excuse that my physical pain is the result of depression, but when i suggest that the depression might be caused by chronic pain, they look at me like i'm insane.

i have been on some form of opiate on a daily basis for almost 20 years, but i get up every day, keep my house clean, take pretty good care of my son, help him with his homework, get him to his lessons on time, volunteer at his school on an average of 20 hours a week, and i also give attention, food, books and sweatshirts to the hundreds of kids in my housing project, that don't seem to get much of any of these things from their parents. (most of whom aren't on methadone) and i'm not even a great example since i was a total slacker before i starting using. most of the people that go to my clinic have real jobs. i'm pretty sure that # would increase if they hadn't been treated like criminals and subjected to the other dangers posed by these ridiculous laws.

also if i didn't tell people that i have been taking opiates in some form, on a daily basis for roughly sixteen years, they would have no way of knowing. so if they can't tell why should it bother them? and how would it hurt anyone if i got a prescription for the same amount of tar heroin that they are already doing every day.

and even if you thought it was right to control what other people did to their own bodies, why stop there? cola is also physically addictive and REALLY FUCKING BAD FOR YOU!!! but since i don't get to bitch-slap the woman that i see giving it to infants and toddlers then you shouldn't get to insist that i not use heroin.

if you're gonna outlaw anything, outlaw pesticides and genetically modified corn. or stretch pants.



ok i just read this again , and although it was all discombobulated, and the lack of grammar, probably takes away from my point, i just don't have the time or energy to correct it. i would be curious to see how other fruitbats felt on the subject. it's a subject that i know something about, and i think that my experiences might help people understand (if not agree with) my point of view.
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Post Sat Jun 05, 2010 1:34 pm   View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
jsdonze



Joined: 04 Apr 2009
Posts: 2046
Location: Dog Snogging on the Ouze
 Reply with quote  

I know the arguments, pro and con, but I've long believed that most, if not all, illegal drugs should be legalized, regulated & taxed. Selling at licensed liquor stores would not necessarily keep drugs out of the hands of minors, just as we can't always keep alcohol out of their hands, but it would be far more effective in the long run than the current system. The "war on drugs" was lost decades ago. Since the most harmful & common drugs -- alcohol & nicotine -- are legal [so far], it only seems logical to legalize the rest.

If one chooses to believe certain conspiracy theories, one might think that the government is behind the manufacture & distribution of these illegal drugs. If that is the case, then they will never be legalized. If that is not the case, however, the government would have nothing to lose & everything to gain by implementing my strategy. Imagine the impact on the federal deficit if marijuana alone was legalized, and taxed comparably to alcohol and tobacco. Just MHO, of course.
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When I was younger I could remember anything, whether it had happened or not; but my faculties are decaying, now, and soon I shall be so I cannot remember any but the latter.

--Mark Twain, Autobiography

Post Sat Jun 05, 2010 2:12 pm   View user's profile Send private message
simba major



Joined: 29 Apr 2010
Posts: 626
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There is a difference between alcohol, for instance, and heroin. Yes, alcohol can ruin lives, but it can also be used responsibly and safely - moderate use of alcohol can even have health benefits. Heroin is in a whole different class.

So I think that alcohol should be legal but not heroin, at least to the general public.

Where I would be open to a change in legislation would be with people who have already become addicted, and that's where I would be really interested in knowing more.

Would it be better for you to have heroin than methadone?

I know very little about these things.
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Post Sat Jun 05, 2010 2:33 pm   View user's profile Send private message
Jinxted



Joined: 15 Mar 2010
Posts: 487
Location: Dorrtuckey, Michigan
 Reply with quote  

I dont know GeG, should this be kept strictly to substances or actions?

In my first 30 yrs I indulged in copious amounts of activities that were legal and semi-legal, rodeo, skiing outside of boundaries, car-surfing, dirt-biking any of these activities were dangerous in and of themselves; the rodeoing broke ribs; skiing broke a knee and femur (thigh bone); riding on cars broken ribs & severe bruised hip and multiple skin abrasions; dirt-bike, broken wrist, multiple bruises.

Many other activities
Jumping from train tresltles 75 ft and 50 ft into rivers never resulted in any injury; On fullmoon nights some 6 or 7 of us would drive around country roads without headlights and hit each other in a game of tag.
And so on

My late teens thru the twenties alot of drinking & barfights and other dangerous luststyles cause me to fear for my life or limb.

How precisely does the various state and federal agencies legislate and enforce the crimilization of my stupid, foolish, and reckless activities?

I wont delve into the pure stupidity of simple drinking in driving, prior to losing one of my closest friends while traveled home from a horse show with his 3 yr old daughter 4 miles from home, some drunk with someone else wife were lost and ran a well mark and rumble stripped stop light, T-bone Rons car this killed him slowly and created a situation wher his daughter in the back seet watched her father die while the killer stood outside the car and did nothing to help him or her. (he received 5 yrs for inv, man. at his sentenceing I weighed the good i had done and my ability to do some time my self by planning on breaking his legs and lower back, the thought of my own kiddies at home a 5 3 and infant at home finaly caused me to see sense. I knew what my charges would been; Assualt ; Asualt with intent to cause GBH, I knew I looked at 5 years for myself, in the end Ichose to let the system invoke its justice.

All of these things Jeannie could have left me dead, disabled, incarcerated.
It was a choice I freely made to engage in these lifestyles (I had no kids and no-one at home who wasnt only a future-former Mrs. Me who were always one step out the door as it was.

So lets make the opium dens and the cocaine house were you know what was going something more along the line of your questions, these are industries that are not in and of themselves, they rely on mules (human style) street runners, the addicted men and woman who can to get more product to more people, there are those that package, transport, and street sell. Theby-products of some of these actions leave infants alone to guard a stash, or leaving close friends to whims of those who guard the doors so someone trusted can make the buy, what if that trusted person went in knowing he/she owed a vig that could'nt be pain in franklins, but could by way of bartering could be paid with that prettly little 14 yr old boy or the 16 yr old girl? someone in there knows what there are worth right down to the drops of blood that stay insinde them till its over, and Jeannie they are asking you which one should be the one to go and for what price for each, (see prices vary) do you pay the price that comes shorts and causes fewer product walking out the door or give it up for the most merch? thats a tought call on a parent, business man, lover, brother or sister to make.

What do you do?

like Old Papa I'm at the end of the wine and will hed over for ice to pay, which is spending time with a very good friend who accidently tosses out the N word I so despize, b ut he changes every day into a little more like me, I am famous here for steadfast morals(sometines right into the jaw of some redneck who really really needs his ability to use free speech sparingly and drink with a straw.

So Who Pays Jeannie? Who Buys? there is a market out there that will trade anything you can offer for almost anything you can desire, and they are not going to lay down and open pharms that are well lit and safe for the opportunie to dole out a evening in NOD, they will want a payment beforehand and they live for the payment after words

Sometime every one pays and do you have the tender to cover the deal?
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Post Sat Jun 05, 2010 2:52 pm   View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Yahoo Messenger
simba major



Joined: 29 Apr 2010
Posts: 626
 Reply with quote  

Have they tried anything like this anywhere? Do we have any data that would give us a reasonable chance to know what to expect if we did it here?
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Post Sat Jun 05, 2010 3:00 pm   View user's profile Send private message
Ginjg



Joined: 04 Sep 2004
Posts: 6617
Location: Los Angeles
 Reply with quote  

It's documented that some are born with a physical predisposition to addiction - it's just not predetermined what one will become addicted to. So, there'll always be addicts of some sort. In Britain and, more recently in Canada, they give addicts on maintenance prescription heroin instead of methadone without problems. There's likely a case to be made that the natural extract is less debilitating than the synthetic concoction.

When opiates and cocaine were legal, there were many well respected addicts that managed to be productive members of the community; but they all started out affluent and could afford the ever increasing cost of their growing dependence.

That wasn't true of the lower economic classes. Even when legal, such addicts were eventually forced into crime to pay for the ever growing cost of just staving off withdrawal. And that resulted in the same horrific compromises that Jinxted outlined.

So where do we draw the line?
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To Know is to Love
To Love is our aim

~~~~~~~

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Post Sat Jun 05, 2010 3:25 pm   View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website AIM Address
fortune cookie



Joined: 18 Mar 2006
Posts: 10534
Location: Easy street
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Cull the herd.
(for intent and purposes "Drugs" do not include prescriptions, Tobacco, Alcohol.)
All y'all kin undulge in whatever drugs ya want.
You have to register to do so.
You may not operate any vehicle, not even if you're "sober".
You may not own firearms of any kind, no, not even a BB gun.
No bows and arrows, either.
You may not procreate, you WILL be fixed.
When ya overdose, yer on yer own. No help will be forthcoming.
When you break into that house, and ya find yourself
staring down the barrel of a 12 guage, yer at the mercy of the home owner.
Should she/he decide to make a grease stain of you, no charges will be offered.
When you cause harm to another, you will be terminated.
Should you be caught with drugs and NOT be registered.
You will be offered the choice of registration and sterilization or termination.
Choice to be carried out immediately.
Knowing full well these stipulations, would you be willing to use?
That's my world. Wink Rolling Eyes
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We all enter this world in the same way: naked; screaming; soaked in blood.
But if you live your life right, that kind of thing doesn't have to stop there." Dana Gould

Post Sat Jun 05, 2010 3:55 pm   View user's profile Send private message
simba major



Joined: 29 Apr 2010
Posts: 626
 Reply with quote  

Ginjg wrote:
It's documented that some are born with a physical predisposition to addiction - it's just not predetermined what one will become addicted to.


Agreed completely. My father was a borderline alcoholic and I definitely have an addictive personality.
Quote:
So, there'll always be addicts of some sort. In Britain and, more recently in Canada, they give addicts on maintenance prescription heroin instead of methadone without problems. There's likely a case to be made that the natural extract is less debilitating than the synthetic concoction.


Then it sounds like a good idea.

Quote:
When opiates and cocaine were legal, there were many well respected addicts that managed to be productive members of the community; but they all started out affluent and could afford the ever increasing cost of their growing dependence.

That wasn't true of the lower economic classes. Even when legal, such addicts were eventually forced into crime to pay for the ever growing cost of just staving off withdrawal. And that resulted in the same horrific compromises that Jinxted outlined.


So the poor get screwed. That does not get my vote.

Quote:
So where do we draw the line?


Sounds like the evidence kind of draws it for us.
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Post Sat Jun 05, 2010 5:06 pm   View user's profile Send private message
Tito



Joined: 30 Mar 2004
Posts: 1203
Location: is everything
 Reply with quote  

buh-bye.

Last edited by Tito on Tue Jul 06, 2010 4:05 pm; edited 1 time in total

Post Sat Jun 05, 2010 6:55 pm   View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
lisa



Joined: 10 Apr 2004
Posts: 6789
 Reply with quote  

Yes.

Drugs, liquor, unwarranted sex, cigarettes, injurious sports, gambling all should be banned.

Legalizing any of these activities is um...illegal.
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Post Sat Jun 05, 2010 8:51 pm   View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
girlEgirl



Joined: 19 Oct 2007
Posts: 6412
Location: olympia, wa
 Reply with quote  

simba major wrote:
There is a difference between alcohol, for instance, and heroin. Yes, alcohol can ruin lives, but it can also be used responsibly and safely - moderate use of alcohol can even have health benefits. Heroin is in a whole different class.

So I think that alcohol should be legal but not heroin, at least to the general public.

Where I would be open to a change in legislation would be with people who have already become addicted, and that's where I would be really interested in knowing more.

Would it be better for you to have heroin than methadone?

I know very little about these things.



methadone is more refined and because it is time release , it never leaves you're system, plus although it is just as addictive (a lot of junkies say it is far MORE addictive, but i actually disagree with that) and physically more damaging, and it does make you feel good, just not sensational like dope. if you have decided that you are ok with these side effects and you jump through all the hoops that they require during the intake and proven that you are a long-time opiate user, then why not either maintenance or detox doses of the real thing? why are doctors so deadset against people getting high???

which in fact that brings me back to the reason for the "methadone is way more addictive than heroin, dude!!!" Rolling Eyes (it's mostly us junkies that tell you this, and use it as an excuse for not trying methadone treatment, god knows i did for years) but basically, just like with other opiates, the physical addiction is progressives with repeated use and of course quantity. if treatment isn't covered by insurance then the clinic can charge you either on a daily, weekly or monthly basis. but the price changes , not one whit, when you increase your dose. so the combination of being unfettered by the financial restraints combined with the inevitable effort to achieve that same awesome high! most clinics have a cap on the amount you can take, but since the staff can't actually ascertain how much you "need" they tend to let people go higher than is necessary so of COURSE you're likely to pick up a more serious habit...

don't get me wrong, in the absence of the common sense to let people choose their own recreation, methadone clinics are the only hope for maintaining a "normal" life, for long-term junkies that can't seem to give up dope on their own. although before i had calico, i couldn't stay on it longer than a few weeks at a time .

now to address you're first statement. i am not surprised to hear that you have little real life experience with heroin, because your thoughts on the subject are exactly what main stream media and entertainment want them to be.

heroin and Oxycontin (coined hillbilly heroin, because it is more available in rural areas, than the tar and china white more familiar in urban areas) are essentially opioid narcotic painkillers. stronger than, but not dissimilar to percaset,(oxcodone) vicadon (hydrocodone) morphine, demoral dillouded, and codeine. the typical reaction will be relaxation and a general easing of physical ad emotional pain, combined with itchyness, constipation and drymouth.

i personally know a bunch of people who have either tried heroin and their reactions have ranged from not being overly impressed to absolutely hating it. then there are also quite a few who tried it and loved it, but not enough to ruin their lives with it. (i have a couple old friends that only do it when i was in town. because i am the consummate drug party planner. Wink Very Happy seriously i rocked!)

of course then there are ALL the people who were prescribed Oxycontin for the pain of surgery, or an accident, that finished their script and moved on with their lives without stealing, raping, killing, or turning to prostitution to get their next fix, (i love tv drug addicts) even after knowing the euphoria of what IS ESSENTIALLY PHARMACEUTICAL HEROIN!!!

but yeah lot's of people totally screw up their lives with dope. but i think that lot's of these people were like me and not doing to much in the way of being a normal productive successful members of society. and whether they were or not , it is NOT ANY WAY SHAPE OR FORM, IMMEDIATELY ADDICTIVE!!!! even if you do them every single day for two weeks you would still have only a mild withdrawal. of course the longer you use it , the worse it get's and every habit comes on quicker. after a few years of frequent use you get the point where it only takes a few days to pick up a habit and the withdrawal makes you want to die, or at least crawl out of your own skin. it sucks. no good.

with alcohol i believe it takes longer to become physically addicted, but then again, the withdrawal can actually kill you, dopesick just makes you want to die! -besides the long term effects of alcoholism, there is also the all too common binge drinking, or even just having "a few too many" blacking out in young people. the loss off control , inhibitions, that leave you open to things like sexual assault and all manner of "death by stupidity" it also tends to make some people highly aggressive and violent. or just stupid and annoying. heroin is extremely physically addictive, and has some fairly unpleasant side effects (not unlike almost every other fucking "over the counter" or prescription drug in the fucking universe:roll:)



so to recap....yeah street heroin and the commonly prescribed pain medicine Oxycontin, are bad for you and addictive, but JUST LIKE WITH ALCOHOL AND NICOTINE not everyone that tries them , get's hooked or even likes them.
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Post Sat Jun 05, 2010 10:47 pm   View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
girlEgirl



Joined: 19 Oct 2007
Posts: 6412
Location: olympia, wa
 Reply with quote  

Tito wrote:
I'd be ok with legalization of opiates, cocaine, speed, (the hard stuff basically) as long as all users got a medical exam first, had to be sterilized, gave up the privilege to drive, and lost all financial aid from the state. And, yes, I am serious.


and you would of course extend that treatment to people who wanted to use alcohol and cigarettes...
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clowns are people too...people who want to hurt you.

Post Sat Jun 05, 2010 10:56 pm   View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
girlEgirl



Joined: 19 Oct 2007
Posts: 6412
Location: olympia, wa
 Reply with quote  

Ginjg wrote:
It's documented that some are born with a physical predisposition to addiction - it's just not predetermined what one will become addicted to. So, there'll always be addicts of some sort. In Britain and, more recently in Canada, they give addicts on maintenance prescription heroin instead of methadone without problems. There's likely a case to be made that the natural extract is less debilitating than the synthetic concoction.

When opiates and cocaine were legal, there were many well respected addicts that managed to be productive members of the community; but they all started out affluent and could afford the ever increasing cost of their growing dependence.

That wasn't true of the lower economic classes. Even when legal, such addicts were eventually forced into crime to pay for the ever growing cost of just staving off withdrawal. And that resulted in the same horrific compromises that Jinxted outlined.

So where do we draw the line?


i wish i could back up my arguments as effectively and efficiently as you do gingj, instead of rambling on and on and on with only anecdotal examples and personal experiences to back up my opinion. i guess i should just be grateful that while your opinions don't usually mirror mine, they are always moderate and downright reasonable....nothing more dangerous than a convincing psyco-path.

Wink Wink

as for what you say about the increasing cost of addiction, it seems like most of the expense is caused by the laws themselves. if you were able to get prescription pharmaceuticals opiates and amphetamines over the counter like in mexico, it wouldn't be that much more expensive than drinking or smoking.
_________________
clowns are people too...people who want to hurt you.

Post Sat Jun 05, 2010 11:09 pm   View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
girlEgirl



Joined: 19 Oct 2007
Posts: 6412
Location: olympia, wa
 Reply with quote  

Jinxted wrote:
I dont know GeG, should this be kept strictly to substances or actions?

In my first 30 yrs I indulged in copious amounts of activities that were legal and semi-legal, rodeo, skiing outside of boundaries, car-surfing, dirt-biking any of these activities were dangerous in and of themselves; the rodeoing broke ribs; skiing broke a knee and femur (thigh bone); riding on cars broken ribs & severe bruised hip and multiple skin abrasions; dirt-bike, broken wrist, multiple bruises.

Many other activities
Jumping from train tresltles 75 ft and 50 ft into rivers never resulted in any injury; On fullmoon nights some 6 or 7 of us would drive around country roads without headlights and hit each other in a game of tag.
And so on

My late teens thru the twenties alot of drinking & barfights and other dangerous luststyles cause me to fear for my life or limb.

How precisely does the various state and federal agencies legislate and enforce the crimilization of my stupid, foolish, and reckless activities?

I wont delve into the pure stupidity of simple drinking in driving, prior to losing one of my closest friends while traveled home from a horse show with his 3 yr old daughter 4 miles from home, some drunk with someone else wife were lost and ran a well mark and rumble stripped stop light, T-bone Rons car this killed him slowly and created a situation wher his daughter in the back seet watched her father die while the killer stood outside the car and did nothing to help him or her. (he received 5 yrs for inv, man. at his sentenceing I weighed the good i had done and my ability to do some time my self by planning on breaking his legs and lower back, the thought of my own kiddies at home a 5 3 and infant at home finaly caused me to see sense. I knew what my charges would been; Assualt ; Asualt with intent to cause GBH, I knew I looked at 5 years for myself, in the end Ichose to let the system invoke its justice.

All of these things Jeannie could have left me dead, disabled, incarcerated.
It was a choice I freely made to engage in these lifestyles (I had no kids and no-one at home who wasnt only a future-former Mrs. Me who were always one step out the door as it was.

So lets make the opium dens and the cocaine house were you know what was going something more along the line of your questions, these are industries that are not in and of themselves, they rely on mules (human style) street runners, the addicted men and woman who can to get more product to more people, there are those that package, transport, and street sell. Theby-products of some of these actions leave infants alone to guard a stash, or leaving close friends to whims of those who guard the doors so someone trusted can make the buy, what if that trusted person went in knowing he/she owed a vig that could'nt be pain in franklins, but could by way of bartering could be paid with that prettly little 14 yr old boy or the 16 yr old girl? someone in there knows what there are worth right down to the drops of blood that stay insinde them till its over, and Jeannie they are asking you which one should be the one to go and for what price for each, (see prices vary) do you pay the price that comes shorts and causes fewer product walking out the door or give it up for the most merch? thats a tought call on a parent, business man, lover, brother or sister to make.

What do you do?

like Old Papa I'm at the end of the wine and will hed over for ice to pay, which is spending time with a very good friend who accidently tosses out the N word I so despize, b ut he changes every day into a little more like me, I am famous here for steadfast morals(sometines right into the jaw of some redneck who really really needs his ability to use free speech sparingly and drink with a straw.

So Who Pays Jeannie? Who Buys? there is a market out there that will trade anything you can offer for almost anything you can desire, and they are not going to lay down and open pharms that are well lit and safe for the opportunie to dole out a evening in NOD, they will want a payment beforehand and they live for the payment after words

Sometime every one pays and do you have the tender to cover the deal?


well who pays for cancer treatment or all the old people with fucked up livers and dementia. we are already paying for drug treatment, court costs, increased police protection, foster care and all the other negative affects which i truly believe would be at least decreased with decriminalization (dude i could never spell that word without spell-check) so we might as well tax these products, use them to stimulate employment. especially since the laws in place don't actually prevent people from doing drugs.
_________________
clowns are people too...people who want to hurt you.

Post Sat Jun 05, 2010 11:21 pm   View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
girlEgirl



Joined: 19 Oct 2007
Posts: 6412
Location: olympia, wa
 Reply with quote  

by the way i was thinking about it and doesn't this subject seem almost more philosophical than political? maybe just to me because i hate politics but i love drugs!! Twisted Evil Twisted Evil Twisted Evil
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clowns are people too...people who want to hurt you.

Post Sat Jun 05, 2010 11:24 pm   View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
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