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should things that are unhealthy be illegal?
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Tito



Joined: 30 Mar 2004
Posts: 1203
Location: is everything
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buh-bye.

Last edited by Tito on Tue Jul 06, 2010 4:05 pm; edited 1 time in total

Post Sun Jun 06, 2010 12:07 am   View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
zendao42



Joined: 05 Sep 2006
Posts: 13570
Location: Somewhere in a galaxy near you
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There's a book about heroin called IT'S SO GOOD, DON'T EVEN TRY IT ONCE-
GEG, if I had a copy, I'd send it to you...

What I do about all chemicals is, the more you synthesize them, the more dangerous & addictive they are
so I favor legalizing all the plants but not the pharmaceuticals...

Naturally, I got lots more to say about chemical recreation in general but not til I can get some more sleep... Razz

Post Sun Jun 06, 2010 3:25 am   View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
simba major



Joined: 29 Apr 2010
Posts: 626
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I still feel like I'm missing some information.

How would heroin for addicts programs work? How often would they get it? Where, in the clinic? By needle? Would the object be maintenance or weaning them off? How hard is that for a long time addict.

I think you're making a decent cae, by the way.
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Post Sun Jun 06, 2010 4:15 am   View user's profile Send private message
girlEgirl



Joined: 19 Oct 2007
Posts: 6412
Location: olympia, wa
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simba major wrote:
I still feel like I'm missing some information.

How would heroin for addicts programs work? How often would they get it? Where, in the clinic? By needle? Would the object be maintenance or weaning them off? How hard is that for a long time addict.

I think you're making a decent cae, by the way.


just like with with the methadone you could choose whether you wanted maintenance or detox. which would probably depend on how many times you have unsuccessfully tried the latter. in england they gave it to you in needles. the same kind that they use for insulin.
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Post Sun Jun 06, 2010 8:47 am   View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
simba major



Joined: 29 Apr 2010
Posts: 626
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girlEgirl wrote:
simba major wrote:
I still feel like I'm missing some information.

How would heroin for addicts programs work? How often would they get it? Where, in the clinic? By needle? Would the object be maintenance or weaning them off? How hard is that for a long time addict.

I think you're making a decent cae, by the way.


just like with with the methadone you could choose whether you wanted maintenance or detox. which would probably depend on how many times you have unsuccessfully tried the latter. in england they gave it to you in needles. the same kind that they use for insulin.



Okay, you've convinced me to this extent (for whatever that's worth to yoou): If I were a legislator, I would vote in favor of carefully controlled methadone or heroin for long time addicts, but I would not legalize for the general public.
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Post Sun Jun 06, 2010 9:49 am   View user's profile Send private message
girlEgirl



Joined: 19 Oct 2007
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Location: olympia, wa
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Tito wrote:
girlEgirl wrote:
Tito wrote:
I'd be ok with legalization of opiates, cocaine, speed, (the hard stuff basically) as long as all users got a medical exam first, had to be sterilized, gave up the privilege to drive, and lost all financial aid from the state. And, yes, I am serious.


and you would of course extend that treatment to people who wanted to use alcohol and cigarettes...


Nope, just the hard stuff. I would completely ban tobacco. Alcohol . . . well, that's a tough one. It's well entrenched and most can handle it. Ok. What the hell. No drivers licenses and take away the welfare for alcohol.



why do people keep saying that? when i was in detox and or the emergency room, there were always more people detoxing from alcohol addiction than all the other substances combined. and believe you me, they were suffering more intensely than anyone else! they also needed more medical supervision and attention.

maybe you think that everyone who does heroin, get's strung out because the even if they use it only occasionally or try it and just don't like it at all, still can't mention it to anyone because THEY WOULD GO TO JAIL! or MAYBE it's because they act so freaking NORMAL when they are on the same amount every day, that they can do all the same things they do normally, and it DOESN'T NEGATIVELY AFFECT ANYONE ELSE'S LIFE AT ALL!!!

like any long term addict, alcoholics learn to cover their tracks, and lie like a rug. (and speak entirely in cliche's Wink ) but i will concede that heroin (which let's remember is often prescribed for pain, and taken as directed) is more physically addictive. (LIKE CIGARETTES)

and yes you are probably more likely to become physically dependent on painkillers than you are alcohol, (which is only psychologically addictive, like CRACK and CRYSTAL METH well mostly, because with frequent use it definitely cause physical addiction as well) , but you are also able to drive, parent, work, but less likely to get raped, commit vehicular homicide, or become an aggressive asshole. (all of which are even more likely to happen BEFORE you become dependent on alcohol)

as far as sterilization goes, i'd rather have a chronically constipated parent than a drunk one. daily use of opiates during pregnancy is infinitely less damaging to the fetus than let's say... weekly use of vodka. nurses often suffer back injuries and have to take painkillers (which are essentially small doses of heroin, by the way) and are still able to perform their duties. i personally am on an extremely high dose of opiates every day and i volunteer 10 to 20 hours a week in my sons elementary school. as far as health issues, alcohol itself is infinitely more damaging to you're health and the well being of those around you, than damaging than silly old heroin.
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Last edited by girlEgirl on Sun Jun 06, 2010 10:52 am; edited 2 times in total

Post Sun Jun 06, 2010 10:32 am   View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
sgt_steve



Joined: 18 Jan 2005
Posts: 5197
Location: Michissippi
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I'm strongly in favor of decriminalization for a lot of drugs, full legalization for some. My motives are simple enough: it's less damaging to society than the current situation.

Much of the damage to society comes from the high price of drugs. When it's illegal, the price goes up. People bankrupt themselves, steal from others, prostitute themselves, etc, to get what they want. And it's not just the addicts; look at what happened with alcohol smuggling during prohibition.

Similarly, we convert people who would otherwise be productive members of society into criminals. Many if not most folks *can* take the occasional recreational drug at a sensible level and not be affected. As long-term examples, consider alcohol, marijuana, cocaine (major ingredient in coca-cola, so many years ago), opium smoking in China, etc. Yes, there were addicts for all those things. But they were not nearly as big a problem then than what we generate now with the legal ban. Note carefully what I said there: they were not nearly as big a problem. They were still addicts, they still damaged themselves. But the collateral damage was much smaller.

Oxycontin, taken as prescribed, is a hellaciously good treatment for pain. But the illegal use has made it horribly difficult to prescribe and take (why yes, my father is on a daily dose of oxycontin and will be for the rest of his life). I take a schedule 2 narcotic on a daily basis, and occasionally it's a pain in the ass. I can only get a prescription for 30 days at a time, and they must happen in lock step: 30 days after the filling one prescription, I can get the next one filled. So if I happen to be out of state on vacation when one script finishes, I'm screwed. I believe GeG has written about this exact same situation with respect to methadone. These difficulties exist because people were reselling their prescription meds. Why resell? Because you can make a lot of money. And why can you make a lot of money? Because illegality has pushed up the price of a popular item.

But if you could go to your doctor - or to a general clinic - and get a script, the bottom falls out of that market, and everything gets cheaper. The legitimate users like me and GeG pay less for the meds, the illegitimate users pay less for the meds, and everybody from the corner pusher to the Medellin Cartel is out of a job. That's one helluva societal good. IMHO it's one helluva lot better than what we've got now.

End of rant. My apologies for having gone on so long.

Post Sun Jun 06, 2010 10:33 am   View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
girlEgirl



Joined: 19 Oct 2007
Posts: 6412
Location: olympia, wa
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*salutes sgt_steve*
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clowns are people too...people who want to hurt you.

Post Sun Jun 06, 2010 10:48 am   View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Tito



Joined: 30 Mar 2004
Posts: 1203
Location: is everything
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buh-bye.

Last edited by Tito on Tue Jul 06, 2010 4:05 pm; edited 1 time in total

Post Sun Jun 06, 2010 1:11 pm   View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
girlEgirl



Joined: 19 Oct 2007
Posts: 6412
Location: olympia, wa
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Tito wrote:
girlEgirl wrote:
Tito wrote:
girlEgirl wrote:
Tito wrote:
I'd be ok with legalization of opiates, cocaine, speed, (the hard stuff basically) as long as all users got a medical exam first, had to be sterilized, gave up the privilege to drive, and lost all financial aid from the state. And, yes, I am serious.


and you would of course extend that treatment to people who wanted to use alcohol and cigarettes...


Nope, just the hard stuff. I would completely ban tobacco. Alcohol . . . well, that's a tough one. It's well entrenched and most can handle it. Ok. What the hell. No drivers licenses and take away the welfare for alcohol.




why do people keep saying that? when i was in detox and or the emergency room, there were always more people detoxing from alcohol addiction than all the other substances combined. and believe you me, they were suffering more intensely than anyone else! they also needed more medical supervision and attention.

maybe you think that everyone who does heroin, get's strung out because the even if they use it only occasionally or try it and just don't like it at all, still can't mention it to anyone because THEY WOULD GO TO JAIL! or MAYBE it's because they act so freaking NORMAL when they are on the same amount every day, that they can do all the same things they do normally, and it DOESN'T NEGATIVELY AFFECT ANYONE ELSE'S LIFE AT ALL!!!

like any long term addict, alcoholics learn to cover their tracks, and lie like a rug. (and speak entirely in cliche's Wink ) but i will concede that heroin (which let's remember is often prescribed for pain, and taken as directed) is more physically addictive. (LIKE CIGARETTES)

and yes you are probably more likely to become physically dependent on painkillers than you are alcohol, (which is only psychologically addictive, like CRACK and CRYSTAL METH well mostly, because with frequent use it definitely cause physical addiction as well) , but you are also able to drive, parent, work, but less likely to get raped, commit vehicular homicide, or become an aggressive asshole. (all of which are even more likely to happen BEFORE you become dependent on alcohol)

as far as sterilization goes, i'd rather have a chronically constipated parent than a drunk one. daily use of opiates during pregnancy is infinitely less damaging to the fetus than let's say... weekly use of vodka. nurses often suffer back injuries and have to take painkillers (which are essentially small doses of heroin, by the way) and are still able to perform their duties. i personally am on an extremely high dose of opiates every day and i volunteer 10 to 20 hours a week in my sons elementary school. as far as health issues, alcohol itself is infinitely more damaging to you're health and the well being of those around you, than damaging than silly old heroin.



You've convinced me. Add alcohol to the list for the full treatment.


we're do you stand on refined sugar addicts, and people with low i.q.'s?
_________________
clowns are people too...people who want to hurt you.

Post Sun Jun 06, 2010 10:25 pm   View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
zendao42



Joined: 05 Sep 2006
Posts: 13570
Location: Somewhere in a galaxy near you
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Sugar has an important function for our brains: it keeps us from hallucinating!

Don't believe me? Try driving around with low blood sugar sometime-
on second thought, let somebody else drive & just watch the dinosaurs beside the road... Twisted Evil

In fact, alcohol's just fermented sugar- GEG, what's up with the war on sugar? Wink

Nah, I know junkies with a fix are more functional than alcoholics-
I heard alcoholism described as a pickle wanting to be a cucumber again & that pretty much sums it...


So, have we gotten to the bit where we can just talk about drugs in general?
No? How about now? Twisted Evil

Post Sun Jun 06, 2010 10:40 pm   View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
girlEgirl



Joined: 19 Oct 2007
Posts: 6412
Location: olympia, wa
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zendao42 wrote:
Sugar has an important function for our brains: it keeps us from hallucinating!

Don't believe me? Try driving around with low blood sugar sometime-
on second thought, let somebody else drive & just watch the dinosaurs beside the road... Twisted Evil

In fact, alcohol's just fermented sugar- GEG, what's up with the war on sugar? Wink

Nah, I know junkies with a fix are more functional than alcoholics-
I heard alcoholism described as a pickle wanting to be a cucumber again & that pretty much sums it...


So, have we gotten to the bit where we can just talk about drugs in general?
No? How about now? Twisted Evil


dude i didn't even bother to bring up the fact that the laws against pot are undeniable proof that they aren't tryna keep anyone safe or healthy...
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clowns are people too...people who want to hurt you.

Post Sun Jun 06, 2010 10:48 pm   View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Tito



Joined: 30 Mar 2004
Posts: 1203
Location: is everything
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buh-bye.

Last edited by Tito on Tue Jul 06, 2010 4:05 pm; edited 1 time in total

Post Mon Jun 07, 2010 1:42 pm   View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Tito



Joined: 30 Mar 2004
Posts: 1203
Location: is everything
 Reply with quote  

buh-bye.

Last edited by Tito on Tue Jul 06, 2010 4:06 pm; edited 2 times in total

Post Mon Jun 07, 2010 1:43 pm   View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
simba major



Joined: 29 Apr 2010
Posts: 626
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Tito wrote:
girlEgirl wrote:
we're do you stand on refined sugar addicts, and people with low i.q.'s?


See, now you're trying to bait me and I won't stand for . . .

Ah what the hell. Most of the world's problems can be traced to overpopulation. On the flip side, what might save the human race from the next biological catastrophe could be our genetic diversity. So . . . leave sugar alone. I need it for my brownies. Low IQs? I think someone of low enough IQ (let's say below adult level, because shouldn't you be an adult to be a parent?) who would need outside assistance to be a parent should be discouraged from reproducing.


Overpopulation is the greatest environmental challenge we face, and probably the root of all others, but no-one is addressing, not even Al Gore,

Any ideas?
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Post Mon Jun 07, 2010 1:47 pm   View user's profile Send private message
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