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AG & e-books
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Taco Bob



Joined: 12 Apr 2004
Posts: 1201
Location: Palm Falls, Florida
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From my limited experience so far, it seems ebooks are a publishers dream - but could easily become a nightmare. A publisher only needs to send in a file to the ebook company one time, and there's never the usual problems with not enough books in stock or too many books in stock. Doing away with the physical book virtually eliminates the fulfillment work for the publisher, and the ebook company just deposits a percentage of the money from each book sold in the publishers bank account monthly. Ebooks can be sold for less because there are no printing costs.
But as Boota says, it's way too easy to steal the ebook and publish it on another site...
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Post Mon Jun 28, 2010 5:25 am   View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Boota



Joined: 09 Apr 2004
Posts: 830
Location: Kokomo, Indiana
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girlEgirl wrote:
i could never afford to listen to the music i like before the internet, and if i was a musician, i would honestly want to get as much exposure as possible. i think that in the long run it might be good for the music industry for there to be less potential to become super rich and famous. then maybe people who love making music will be the ones who persevere. i still get giddy knowing that i can basically listen to any song i like on the free streaming sites.

also i think that the combination of cd's costing twice the price of cassettes when they came out combined with the unstable economy might have something to do the decreased revenue...


The internet can be used to market a band or artist, but it really doesn't work the way you describe. It is killing off lots of good artists because music is expensive to produce and promote. I've been a professional musician since I was sixteen. Even made it to the Grammy ballot in 2006. Record labels are very hesitant to take a chance on ANY artist that can't pull in mainstream pop numbers immediately. My friend Phil was in a band that came out of Chicago in the late 90's. They were signed and they were really good. Millions of downloads and only around a hundred thousand sales later his band got dropped. Used to be 100,000 copies of a debut album was considered good and would lead to developing the artist and grooming them to take off. Instead, because they can't put up Nickleback sales right out of the gate, they had to be cut loose. Record companies have to make up their income and recoup their investments in this way due to all the thieves out their devaluing the music they claim to love.

People who love making music persevere. But we also have families. I can't afford to make music right now because I have to provide for my family. It's either suffer and scrape by so that people can steal my hard work and money anyway, or let that part of me go away to die. The internet is even hurting the little guys.

To anyone who steals their music: Don't call yourself a music fan. You're not. Music fans support the artists they enjoy, not taking money directly out of their pockets and ruining their livelihoods. We're not all Metallica rich.
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Post Mon Jun 28, 2010 5:30 am   View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
simba major



Joined: 29 Apr 2010
Posts: 626
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There are a thousand ways for a thief to justify his thievery.
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Post Mon Jun 28, 2010 6:15 am   View user's profile Send private message
girlEgirl



Joined: 19 Oct 2007
Posts: 6412
Location: olympia, wa
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but the free streaming sites are like listening to the radio aren't they? and just like listening to the radio, they have pop ups and commercials . i mean when i was a kid we were so poor we didn't even have running water, but i used to tape songs off the radio and from my friends cassettes onto blank cassetes. wasn't that basically the same thing?

also i think the problems that you are describing with the music industry have been around long before the internet came into play. i think that generic mainstream, "take no chances music" has always been easier to market than cool underground stuff because most people are essentially idiots. i mean bush got voted in at least once, right? and i think a lot of fantastic underground musicians tried and failed to make money before the internet and people like me that listen to music online because we have to have high-speed anyway so our kids can keep up at school, but NEVER had the money to buy cd's anyway should get to hear good music too. i really think that the economy has as much to do with it as music sharing.

but then again i do see your point scott and i know how frustrating it can be to be too busy with the constant stress of taking care of you're family to nurture you're art. speaking of which...is there a link to you're music on your' face book page?
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Post Mon Jun 28, 2010 6:39 am   View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
simba major



Joined: 29 Apr 2010
Posts: 626
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girlEgirl wrote:
but the free streaming sites are like listening to the radio aren't they? and just like listening to the radio, they have pop ups and commercials .


Do they pay performance royalties like the radio stations? If so, then it's cool. Some do; some don't, but Boota knows more about that than I do.

Quote:
i mean when i was a kid we were so poor we didn't even have running water, but i used to tape songs off the radio and from my friends cassettes onto blank cassetes. wasn't that basically the same thing?


Taping songs off the radio gave you an inferior product. These days, file sharing gives you a copy which is indistinguishable from the original. Who needs to buy it? It's stealing.

Quote:
also i think the problems that you are describing with the music industry have been around long before the internet came into play.


Music makers are making less money, acts the would have been viable are being dropped, and there's a lot less money to be put into music production because there is less to be made . . . because people are stealing the music instead of paying for it.

Quote:
i think that generic mainstream, "take no chances music" has always been easier to market than cool underground stuff because most people are essentially idiots.


It's hareder for cool underground stuff to get made now because of the above.

[quote] i mean bush got voted in at least once, right?[./quote]

What's that old maxim about a person losing any internet argument the moment they invoke Hitler? I think we should add a corollary for Bush. Wink

[quote]cause we have to have high-speed anyway so our kids can keep up at school, but NEVER had the money to buy cd's anyway should get to hear good music too. i really think that the economy has as much to do with it as music sharing. [quote]

So if you can't afford something it's okay to steal it?

For real?

Quote:
but then again i do see your point scott and i know how frustrating it can be to be too busy with the constant stress of taking care of you're family to nurture you're art. speaking of which...is there a link to you're music on your' face book page?


He would have a much easier time supporting his family and making the music he loves for people like us if it wasn't getting stolen.

How many future bootas won't even bother trying? And how many future AG's - yeah, there's only one, but it's a metaphor, okay? - won't even bother picking up a pen?
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Post Mon Jun 28, 2010 7:05 am   View user's profile Send private message
Jinxted



Joined: 15 Mar 2010
Posts: 487
Location: Dorrtuckey, Michigan
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We dont let the kids download music from any file-share sites, they can hear any artist they like be tuning into youtube and to be honest youtube can helped me discover a few bands I never would have, Nightwish, Theory of a Deadman, State of Shock to name a few, Now Iown cd's by these artists. I know that each of these artists get play in various types of 'over the air' radio but Idont listen to the radio anymore, corporate radio is just that and artist that fit the corporate style get more airplay.

I bought XM Radio some years back so I could listen to Baseball games when I was on the road, (I've been a truck driver for over a million miles, it tuff to hear my team in places I go) I also use it for world/national news
and to be honest I only had a few music stations that it would cycle through when I was off the MLB channel 70-80's mainstream, 70-90's country, HairNation (80-90's Metal) that was it, late 90's and on I have thought was mainly crap, I dont have any other certification of this other that I didnt want it in my ears, I discovered bands I like thru youtube or the wife & kids giving me a heads up on stuff I like, I am sure Satellite Radio pays the appropiate fees to the proper channels since those douches in Metallica havent spouted off (I dont think they are douches because of the Congress bit. I think they are douchebags simply by being them)

I've gotten my Audiofix from my local Library and Audible.com so I wait or buy as I listen to my choices, but each have paid for me to use them, someday when A iPad is in my hot little hands i'll choose to goto iTunes but the system I have now works and I can sleep at night.
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Post Mon Jun 28, 2010 8:23 am   View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Yahoo Messenger
Lauren



Joined: 07 Mar 2004
Posts: 1582
Location: Massachusetts
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Taco Bob wrote:
From my limited experience so far, it seems ebooks are a publishers dream - but could easily become a nightmare. A publisher only needs to send in a file to the ebook company one time, and there's never the usual problems with not enough books in stock or too many books in stock. Doing away with the physical book virtually eliminates the fulfillment work for the publisher, and the ebook company just deposits a percentage of the money from each book sold in the publishers bank account monthly. Ebooks can be sold for less because there are no printing costs.
But as Boota says, it's way too easy to steal the ebook and publish it on another site...


Publishers are still trying to figure out the ebook thing, and how to get the balance right -- sure, people don't want to pay hardcover prices for an ebook, but I'm not convinced letting Amazon set the price is the way to go, either. And if you drop the ebook prices down, what's a fair royalty for the author?

Is this new agency model thing that was born with the iPad working? Hint: the iPad came out in, what, early April? I'm pretty sure most publishers calculate royalties either quarterly or semiannually. Which means this quarter/this year still has two days to go. Most authors very likely don't know yet how their agency-model sales compare to their pre-agency model Kindle royalties. And there's no industry standard for ebook royalties. It's gotta be a hell of a headache being a literary agent right now, let alone an author going it alone.

Do ebook readers want just the text, or do they demand more features to go along with it? How do publishers pay to produce the extra stuff, when they get slammed for the ebook prices as it is?

I'm also going to refute one point, TB:

Quote:
Ebooks can be sold for less because there are no printing costs.


Disclaimer/clarification: I'm talking about this from the standpoint of a big ol' commercial publisher. I would guess that authors who self-publish would have a different price/cost breakdown.

The bound book price -- which is the amount of money per book the publishers spend on ink, paper, binding, warehousing and shipping/fulfillment -- is between $1 and $3 per copy. So, can I understand dropping the price of eBooks down a couple of bucks? Sure. But they're not free to produce. The rest of the book price works kind of like this:

Say your cover price is $25. Bookseller discount is around 50% (for ease of math. It's closer to 45-46% for retail bookstores that have returnable accounts. Stores that are set up as non-returnable tend to have a slightly higher discount, and warehouses/distributors see a little bit over 50%. So, we'll call the average 50%.)

$25- 50% = 12.50.

Author royalties can be anywhere from 10-15%. Let's say we've got a debut author here, so, 10% royalty.

$25 x .10 = $2.50

So, let's subtract those three: bookseller discount, author royalty, and bound book price (we'll call it $2.00):

$25.00 - $12.50 = $12.50
$12.50 - $2.50 = $10.00
$10.00 - $2.00 = $8.00

Eight dollars per book looks like a pretty sweet take for the publisher, doesn't it?

Except... that's not profit. Not by any means.

Out of that $8.00/book comes the cost of marketing and advertising -- even if a book doesn't get a New York Times ad, it's marketed to booksellers -- in catalogs, through advanced reading copies, through co-operative advertising -- things most readers aren't even aware of. You have to pay the editors, the copyeditors and the people who do the layout (ebooks aren't just a matter of slapping a word doc or a .pdf onto your Nook. You know the biggest complaint I see about ebooks? That they look crappy on the screen, that they're poorly laid out. That's because someone did a half-assed job at the layout.) You pay the finance department, the customer service department, the sales force (HI!), the guys in the mailroom. You pay the electric bill, the phone bill, the lease on whatever building your offices are in. You pay the voice actors who read the audio versions.

Maybe at the end of that, you've got some money leftover, but here's another thing to think about: most books never earn out their advance. A publisher gives $5000 to the author when they buy the book, let's say, and spend another $5,000 marketing it. Chances are good that the publisher won't sell enough copies of that author's book to make that $10,000 back.

Books that DO earn a profit (yes, our Pattersons and our Twilights), give the publishers the ability to buy and promote books that DON'T. Which would send me off into another spiral, and I swear, I'm not trying to threadjack, so I'll stop there. I just wanted to point out that the price of printing and shipping the dead tree versions of books isn't as expensive as a lot of people think it is. XD

It's a creaky, clunky model, and publishers/authors/booksellers have to figure out what changes need to be made.
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Post Mon Jun 28, 2010 8:23 am   View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website AIM Address ICQ Number
girlEgirl



Joined: 19 Oct 2007
Posts: 6412
Location: olympia, wa
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simba major wrote:
There are a thousand ways for a thief to justify his thievery.


truedat, one time i was so hungry i stole someones jack-o-lantern, washed peeled and boiled it and ate it up! (my justification is that it was the morning after halloween!
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Post Mon Jun 28, 2010 12:01 pm   View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Taco Bob



Joined: 12 Apr 2004
Posts: 1201
Location: Palm Falls, Florida
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Lauren wrote:


Publishers are still trying to figure out the ebook thing, and how to get the balance right -- sure, people don't want to pay hardcover prices for an ebook, but I'm not convinced letting Amazon set the price is the way to go, either.



Actually, with ebooks Amazon allows the publisher to set the price, and change it easily. Amazon may or may not discount it further.


Lauren wrote:


I'm also going to refute one point, TB:

Quote:
Ebooks can be sold for less because there are no printing costs.




We both forgot to mention shipping charges - which can add another fifty cents to a dollar per book for the publisher to get product to the distributors. No shipping or handling costs with ebooks.
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Post Mon Jun 28, 2010 1:28 pm   View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
simba major



Joined: 29 Apr 2010
Posts: 626
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girlEgirl wrote:
simba major wrote:
There are a thousand ways for a thief to justify his thievery.


truedat, one time i was so hungry i stole someones jack-o-lantern, washed peeled and boiled it and ate it up! (my justification is that it was the morning after halloween!


I think we'll let you have that one.
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Post Mon Jun 28, 2010 1:48 pm   View user's profile Send private message
girlEgirl



Joined: 19 Oct 2007
Posts: 6412
Location: olympia, wa
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simba major wrote:
girlEgirl wrote:
simba major wrote:
There are a thousand ways for a thief to justify his thievery.


truedat, one time i was so hungry i stole someones jack-o-lantern, washed peeled and boiled it and ate it up! (my justification is that it was the morning after halloween!


I think we'll let you have that one.


well no, i used to steal all the time, but that was the only time it was from an individual, all the other ones were either corporate grocery store or places like nordstroms, that had this great policy where you could return things (like 300 dollars containers of perfume) with a state issued i.d. .....without a receipt.....FOR CASH!!!! but in general it was only food from big chain grocery stores....
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Post Mon Jun 28, 2010 2:47 pm   View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
simba major



Joined: 29 Apr 2010
Posts: 626
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You must have had skills gEg.

To relate to the music industry, though, it would be like armies of shoplifters coming into the store and cleaning out half the shelves.
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Post Mon Jun 28, 2010 4:04 pm   View user's profile Send private message
Tito



Joined: 30 Mar 2004
Posts: 1203
Location: is everything
Re: AG & e-books  Reply with quote  

buh-bye.

Last edited by Tito on Tue Jul 06, 2010 2:07 pm; edited 1 time in total

Post Mon Jun 28, 2010 4:49 pm   View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
simba major



Joined: 29 Apr 2010
Posts: 626
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And what about all the piracy which is so easy with these formats? Don't you see that having any effect at all?
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Post Mon Jun 28, 2010 4:59 pm   View user's profile Send private message
Tito



Joined: 30 Mar 2004
Posts: 1203
Location: is everything
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buh-bye.

Last edited by Tito on Tue Jul 06, 2010 2:08 pm; edited 1 time in total

Post Mon Jun 28, 2010 5:04 pm   View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
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