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Twins
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Ginjg



Joined: 04 Sep 2004
Posts: 6617
Location: Los Angeles
Twins  Reply with quote  

That is such a tender expression of your love and so unbelievably heartwrenching.

Kristen you are the most valiant woman.
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To Know is to Love
To Love is our aim

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Post Tue May 16, 2006 10:17 pm   View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website AIM Address
knikkki



Joined: 13 Jun 2005
Posts: 3145
Location: Davis, CA
 Reply with quote  

Heartwrenching is the perfect word. My best to you. Stay strong.
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Post Tue May 16, 2006 10:29 pm   View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
conejita_de_ramera



Joined: 04 Mar 2006
Posts: 24
Location: Bellingham, Washington
 Reply with quote  

I don't know what to say... I just came on here for the first time in ages... only for the fact that I've felt so damn shitty, and what did I find... someone asking about me in a thread and my better half leaving a powerful, loving, invigorating plea of what's left of my existance.

There's something you all should know... there's no way I could make it without the strength that Jefe pours in me every second of every day.

With this being said, I owe everyone on this board a great deal of sincere gratidtude... and this would be that one time that I am a lost for words.

Please, if you all that come to read these, wouldn't mind spreading my word of gratitude...or point them in this direction so that they all may see for theirselves just how truly touched I am.

And to you Mr. Moore... I wouldn't be feeling these emotions of belonging and warmth followed by teary eyes if it wasn't for you bringing us all together like you do with your AWESOME talent to write and entertain our minds like you do.

.......... as little as these few words are, they are great and powerful in meaning...........Thank You All!

Love,
Kristin

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Post Tue May 16, 2006 10:40 pm   View user's profile Send private message
Ferrit Leggings



Joined: 29 Mar 2004
Posts: 2658
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I apologies ahead of time…

I can understand your condition and possible need to relate your cancer experiences but your prose reminds me of an article about Kurt Vonnegut and a class he taught on creative writing while being a writer in residence at a university in NY.

A student of his wrote a touching story about one of her parents dying from cancer. The story could have been mine. I watched many family members and friends succumb to this terrible disease. There have been times that I wanted to write something about it but often the feeling after writing is more sentiment than anything else and especially nothing truly literary. His response was much like that, except that he asked if the dying parent could have gone crazy. The student became rather angry and went to the dean or something of that sort, whatever the person is called to complain.

Nonetheless, you should keep writing. Write everything and all that you can so you can pass it on to your next generation.

FL
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Post Thu May 18, 2006 6:04 pm   View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Ginjg



Joined: 04 Sep 2004
Posts: 6617
Location: Los Angeles
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FL,

Callous as Vonnegut was, his student was assigned to write a piece of fiction. It was reasonable that he expect the student to follow the parameters of the assignment. His flip way of telling her she'd not met the requirements was not a critique of either the skill with which she expressed herself or the validity of doing so.

Here we get what we're offered. Sometimes the author posts a piece expressly for critique and usually say so. Often it's merely meant to entertain us. Some of it's good, most average and some down right awful. Very little of it is "truly literary".

Then there are the expressive pieces. They're just meant to share joy, pain, anger, ambivalence or loneliness. Sentiment is part of the human experience. It would be a shame if no one ever expressed it. It's how we learn that our own internal dialogue is part of a common humanity.

Recently, it's been out of fashion to admit to passion of any sort. Expressed emotion is expected to fluxuate within a lithium proscribed range. Any overt passion is considered unforgivably offensive.

The openness to express sentiment in writing is admirable. If an expressive piece manages to actually impart the sentiment effectively, then that is sufficient. It doesn't need to be high art. Sometimes plain, simple and straight forward is much more effective.
_________________
To Learn is to Know
To Know is to Love
To Love is our aim

~~~~~~~

Why should we bother with immortality when we are eternal?

Post Sun May 21, 2006 11:45 am   View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website AIM Address
Ferrit Leggings



Joined: 29 Mar 2004
Posts: 2658
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Ginjg,

His flip comment was simply telling her that it was pure sentiment and not literature. There is a difference. I could write heartfelt letters and poems and stories but about the only place they will end up is Chicken Soup for the Soul.

I do not have a problem with simple and straightforward but it was clunky reading to me which holds its readers due to a health condition that most people can relate to. Vonnegut’s point was much the same. Cancer is unfortunately very common and an experience that most people can relate to or have known. Adding something extra to the piece that he was speaking of would have brought it out for the genre of sentimentality and to another realm. It may be harsh to say but it is true.

Passion is one thing, sentiment is another.

FL
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I feel the same way about disco as I do about herpes. -HST

Post Sun May 21, 2006 1:25 pm   View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Ginjg



Joined: 04 Sep 2004
Posts: 6617
Location: Los Angeles
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You're perfectly within your right not to like the piece. It's fine that you don't like to read outpourings of emotion. But to criticize the piece for not being what it was never intended to be is disingenuous.

Passion is just sentiment made grand. There is nothing wrong with sentiment be it grand, common or pure.

Hallmark cards and books like Chicken Soup for the Soul are manipulative tripe without depth. Their whole purpose is to make you feel good about yourself, though only in that lithium range I mentioned before. I've read cookie fortunes that were more evocative.

Not all writing is meant to entertain or tell a conventional story. Sometimes it is specifically to impart information or feeling. If a piece purports only to express a sentiment, or merely a thought, and it does so effectively then it needn't be grand literature or even elegant.

So it's not high prose or sterling poetry. Twins! clearly expressed love, despair and hope. It was meant to impart what one specific person feels. It did so without manipulation. Which makes it an effective piece of writing.
_________________
To Learn is to Know
To Know is to Love
To Love is our aim

~~~~~~~

Why should we bother with immortality when we are eternal?

Post Sun May 21, 2006 5:15 pm   View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website AIM Address
Ferrit Leggings



Joined: 29 Mar 2004
Posts: 2658
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It is your opinion to like it and mine not to. I critisised the writing and I knew this was going to happen. I knew that someone would jump on my opinion due to the sentiment behind the writing.

I feel that it was written clearly to pull on emotion.

Chicken Soup for the Soul is some of the most depressing writing I have ever read. It lacks emotion because too much is put into it. It is designed to be the moral tale or the tale of whoa or the tale of lost fortune or fortune found or the tale of life ending or starting. Writing like that takes situations that are common and pours the emotion all over it. Then it becomes disingenuous. It becomes the Hallmark card or the Sat afternoon special.

That is my opinion.

FL
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I feel the same way about disco as I do about herpes. -HST

Post Sun May 21, 2006 7:33 pm   View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Ginjg



Joined: 04 Sep 2004
Posts: 6617
Location: Los Angeles
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So we agree on CSFTS and Hallmark. They're intentionally manipulative drek with less real substance than wonder bread. I know people who love that stuff, even people that I otherwise consider to be intelligent and interesting. But I've never been able to tolerate it.

I was never trying to get you to like the piece. It would be unreasonable of anyone to do so. My issue was not that you disliked it. It was that you justified your dislike with criteria for a different type of writing.

My first point is that the criteria for different types of writing are not the same. To apply the criteria for one type to another is ridiculous. That said, it is possible to look at a given piece, apply the criteria for that particular type of writing, find that the criteria are met, yet still dislike the piece. I've done it myself quite often.

The other is that there is a difference between writing meant to manipulate emotion and writing meant to express emotion. Though, often, an expressive piece does stir the reader which can lead to a misinterpretation of the intent.
_________________
To Learn is to Know
To Know is to Love
To Love is our aim

~~~~~~~

Why should we bother with immortality when we are eternal?

Post Sun May 21, 2006 8:35 pm   View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website AIM Address
Ferrit Leggings



Joined: 29 Mar 2004
Posts: 2658
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I think we will have to part here on this issue because we still do disagree, which is fine. We all have things that we like and dislike for whatever reason. Some people like pop music and some don't, some prefer Mozart and some Beethoven. I am a Beethoven fan btw.

FL
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I feel the same way about disco as I do about herpes. -HST

Post Mon May 22, 2006 8:01 pm   View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Ginjg



Joined: 04 Sep 2004
Posts: 6617
Location: Los Angeles
 Reply with quote  

Ferrit Leggings wrote:
I think we will have to part here on this issue because we still do disagree, which is fine. We all have things that we like and dislike for whatever reason. Some people like pop music and some don't, some prefer Mozart and some Beethoven. I am a Beethoven fan btw.

FL


I take this to mean that you believe there is one single set of criteria by which all writing is to be judged.
_________________
To Learn is to Know
To Know is to Love
To Love is our aim

~~~~~~~

Why should we bother with immortality when we are eternal?

Post Mon May 22, 2006 9:44 pm   View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website AIM Address
Ferrit Leggings



Joined: 29 Mar 2004
Posts: 2658
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The basic way of judging writing is by the rules of grammar, syntax and so on. The poem is fine that way but falters in the way the sentences are formed or the sections of the poems. Some are too long and don’t give way to a breath or a pause for the reader to reflect on the words given to them. Prominence or strength is not given to the words naturally but through exclamation marks and other punctuation. It trivialises it too an extant rather than add the power that could be from a comma and start of a new line.

Quote:
Example,

Just like moons and like suns,
With the certainty of tides,
Just like hopes springing high,
Still I'll rise.
- Maya Angelou


Still I’ll rise is given the separation from the other words adding to the force of the statement.

The presentation is off as well with the larger text trying to overshadow the other work in the forum. It should be normal text size and let the poem speak for itself and not the size of the text. Salvador Dali did this with his paintings. His paintings were small but memorable. If you went into a gallery were his work was shown you would have too look for them. I saw one of his paintings that was about the size of a postcard, around 7 by 5, and I can recall standing there in awe of the work. The title, at this time, escapes me, but that is due to lack of sleep.

The wording is ok but lacks punch. “We Could Never Live On Living,” is clunky and could use different wording. “Harmony, peace and true ever - lasting love,” is sentiment and boasting. It is also contradictory to the photo she has representing herself in the AV. I don’t think of Peace and love while looking at a healthy woman brandishing an M16 in high heels. It is a small thing but matters when writing something like Twins. Is there are reason why there is a woman with a gun and heels in her AV? It shows strength, independence, to some but to some it is off putting. It is not to me but I mention it because it is there. It also is a rule to show it and not say it in writing.

Now this is all my opinion and all art is personal opinion. There are certain criteria for judging poetry, essays, writing in general as there is for most forms of art. In the visual arts it is usually composition, framing, subject, mood, technique, and so on. Writing is structure, flow, and so on. Presentation is also something to be judged as in how something looks on a page, the condition of the work, is it professional looking, or is it not and if not is there a reason why it doesn’t look that way. Charles Bukowsku wrote some great poetry with a very hard edge to it but was criticized at times for not living the life he showed in his work. Neruda wrote very well and passionately and presented himself very well, he won the Nobel Prize.

FL
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I feel the same way about disco as I do about herpes. -HST

Post Tue May 23, 2006 4:20 pm   View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Ginjg



Joined: 04 Sep 2004
Posts: 6617
Location: Los Angeles
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So, we do not disagree. We are judging different aspects.

You're new criteria make much more sense than your first, which were not applicable to the piece in either context.
_________________
To Learn is to Know
To Know is to Love
To Love is our aim

~~~~~~~

Why should we bother with immortality when we are eternal?

Post Tue May 23, 2006 7:09 pm   View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website AIM Address
lisa



Joined: 10 Apr 2004
Posts: 6789
 Reply with quote  

Oh. Kirstin talks about cancer and Ferrit is talking about her grammar and syntax.

So like a teacher.

Kirstin poemed about her cancer and I gave her recipes.

So like an ex-cook.

No wonder she loves this web site.

Ooops. Carry on.
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Post Wed May 24, 2006 9:13 am   View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
conejita_de_ramera



Joined: 04 Mar 2006
Posts: 24
Location: Bellingham, Washington
 Reply with quote  

I have been lurking around witnessing this fiasco of critique and wanted to step forth to say FL, Ginjg, Lisa and all fellow readers/commenters/critics that I appreciate and value all opinions. I don't take critique on a personal level... This was a piece that I wrote in an emotional state of mind and therefore it did create "emotion"; however, I chose to share this piece with all to view and comment and/or critisize constructively. Rolling Eyes

Some take emo as a weakness... *shrugs* when those that deal with emo on a day-to-day basis learns to use weakness to strengthen one's own vendetta in life's journey and make the best out of life. If my writing has distracted one's state of mind and created a wave of emo that was unwanted then I can understand why one would lean back and thrash out "critique" on this piece. I close by saying again; thanks for taking the time to read and share all aspects of opinions regarding this poem.

Until next time,
Kristin
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Don't underestimate the Queen "B" of the Known Universe.....

Post Wed May 24, 2006 9:07 pm   View user's profile Send private message
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